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Hey, welcome back to software social.

This week, I have someone joining me
who probably needs no introduction,

but I will give one anyway.

Arvid Kahl, you probably know him from
Twitter or his book zero to sold about

exiting the company he co-founded
feedback Panda, or his book, the embedded

entrepreneur, or perhaps his new Twitter
course called find your following, or

perhaps his blog or perhaps his podcast.

So welcome it to software,
social everyone's favorite

German Canadian entrepreneur.

Arvid: Oh, thanks so much.

I really need to stop making
products so we can keep these

introductions a bit shorter.

Ah,

Michele: Because a problem, right?

Like it's an addiction that
this is like making things.

Arvid: That's when you just have to
have really short names for everything

you do, so you can list them easier.

But yeah, it is an honestly.

Like I was trying to have a couple months
of not doing anything after I released my

second book, just in the middle of 2020.

And then I just felt, I
really continue doing stuff.

And, and this January,
I just dove into it.

Like January 1st, I started writing.

January 31st, I released the
course cause I really just

wanted to get something done.

I didn't have to.

I have my life plan is to do one
thing a year, like one product a year.

Right.

Just so I can focus my attention
and do the things that I want to do.

And turns out that this has
now shrunk into one thing.

Not intentionally, it just
happened because I didn't want

to spend like nine or 11 months
in a year, not doing anything.

So it kinda, you know, you could throw
on back to work when work is so enjoyable

and it's done in the community, which
is like, everybody's always interacting

with me about the stuff that I love.

So it's hard to not do things.

You know, so that's why the
list is growing and growing.

And I do appreciate you mentioning
all the things, because it just

shows me how much I've actually
done it the last couple of years.

So thank you.

Michele: You really are someone
who has found their following

and found their community.

So perhaps that's a good place
to start is with Twitter.

We're actually running a survey of our
listeners right now because you know,

we've got more advertisers interested in
us who aren't, you know, other sort of

indie companies and those advertisers want
to know demographics and stuff like that.

And so we're doing this little survey
that people can go on Twitter to

find the link to, it's our pin tweet.

And one of the responses to that was
somebody was hoping that we could

talk a little bit about using Twitter
effectively as an entrepreneur.

And this just happens to be the
entire topic of your new course.

Arvid: That's right.

Conveniently, but Yeah.

I kinda fell into it.

I gotta say, like, I've been using
Twitter for over a decade now,

really, because I'm a tech person.

I was a software engineer back in 2008
and nine already cause I've always been

doing software stuff, and Twitter was
One of those things that people who

knew what they were doing were using.

So I was using it back in 2008 and
nine, and ever since then, but I

was never using it professionally.

I was always using it just as a person
looking around and looking at stuff and

reading and finding stuff interesting.

Following a couple people here or there
not to intentionally, just kind of whoever

came on my radar was the person I would.

And that's showed because I think
back in 2019, just after we had sold

feedback Panda, and for that story, I
think people can go back to episode, I

forgot, but with Danielle y'all right.

My, my co-founder and

Michele: that was last, I guess,
it would have been it's a December

2020 episode where yeah, we your
co-founder and partner, Danielle.

Arvid: That was a whole thing, right.

That really occupied us for two years.

But once that was over, once we
actually sold the company exited

and then had nothing to do, I kinda
thought, okay, now I'm on Twitter.

I have my 400 followers that I've
painfully accumulated over at that point

it must've been 10 years of doing nothing
on Twitter, how can I leverage this?

How can I leverage the community
that I'm already in, my personal

experience as a software entrepreneur,
and as somebody who can now teach

the things that I've learned.

And then I started doing
it more professionally.

I kind of just figured it out.

It's like almost everything, every
entrepreneur, all day, it's just figuring

things out as they fall into your path.

Right.

And then I learned how to communicate
with people more effectively and

in a way that builds relationships.

And it's not just me watching
somebody do something, but

actually engaging with them.

And then building, building a following,
building an audience, whatever you want

to call it, just like gathering people
around you around the common cause

around the common topic of interest.

So yeah, I was really not using
Twitter effectively because I didn't

care, or I didn't really know.

I don't think I knew how and that Twitter
could be used in a way that I could then

leverage in a more professional sense.

So I was really just like
following random people.

I was not following intentionally.

I was engaging with people
when I thought I had something

really, really cool to see.

And not in any other situation,
I was less responsive.

I didn't read the tweets ever.

I just, you know, and I use Twitter,
like a person that didn't really

know how to use Twitter efficiently.

And that's fine, I guess, because most
people don't, then everybody has a

different reason why they come to Twitter.

That's one of the first things that
I went into for the course, because I

was thinking, Hey, I'm going to make a
course for people who want to use Twitter

professionally, what do they need to know?

Right.

From the start.

And under the two things that I
figured out in my reflection on this, I

actually, I didn't just make a course.

I wrote 42,000 words of a script
and then narrate it that through a

teleprompter, into a camera, essentially.

That's what my courses, because
that's how I I'm best I write first.

And then I record either for my
podcast or no for this course.

So I really wrote it all out and
edited it myself and thought about it.

And I think, the two main things you need
to know is why am I on Twitter as the

person who wants to build an audience?

And why are the people that I want to
be in my audience on Twitter, as well.

And then you need to bridge
these two things, right?

Like if you're a software engineer and
you really want to build a blog so that

your future employers can see how cool
you are and you want to be on Twitter,

so you can build a little audience around
yourself so that you can get into, I don't

know, Google or any other cool startup.

Well, then you need to know why special
and what you can bring to the table

and what the people that you want
to see your stuff come to Twitter

for, so you can provide it to them.

Or if you want to build a community
around a particular social issue,

you need to understand what is your
approach that makes you interesting.

And why do people who have
also interested in that issue?

Why are they on Twitter?

What are they talking
about and where are they?

And that's, you need to figure out
first, because all this stuff that

you find in and Twitter advice.

It's very marketing, very salesy.

And how do I get people to follow me
so that I can sell them something?

And that is fine.

You can build a Twitter audience to
sell people something that's fine.

Monetizing is okay.

It's legal.

We can do this.

That's okay.

But you, you still have to be on Twitter
for a reason for people to follow you

as a not just as a brand, not just
as somebody who has a cool product,

but as a person that they want to
engage with, because that relationship

is so much more important than any
transaction you could potentially have.

And that's what I figured out at
some point, people aren't on Twitter

because they want to be friends with.

They are on Twitter because they want
to be friends with their peers, people

who are doing the exact same thing
they're doing, or they got just a bit

ahead of them on the journey, or just
a bit behind them on their journey.

They just want to connect with people.

And once you figure out that this is
what people want, you learn how they

connect with people, and then you
can provide things, opportunities for

them to actually connect with you.

And that's , why the course exists
because I figured this out for me.

I did it in public for two years.

Been building all my stuff in public
because I find that very interesting

to give people that kind of glimpse
into the journey and that resonated so

much with an audience that it grew to.

Yeah.

I must be 50,000 by now.

So that.

And I'm sharing the
path that worked for me.

And that I see working for other people
who are doing this, like Noah brag, right?

Amazing builder in public.

He's building potion, his little notion
to aesthetic websites tool in public

every day to something really cool out
there where you have Matt Wensing, who you

had on the show, who's building summit.

Amazing tool in a totally
different kind of SAS space, right?

Financial projection, and prediction.

And he's so good at building and public.

Everything he does on Twitter
is kind of, it's a smart thing,

it's related to two businesses.

It's sometimes not, it doesn't
seem related to his product, but it

kind of is, and he knows what he's
doing and he's doing it so well.

There are so many great examples out there
and I kind of pulled them all together.

For other people to find.

And that's why I made this course, right.

That's really why I'm doing this.

But of course the aside, I'm just
super interested in those people,

in what they do and how you
can leverage what are to teach.

Michele: Yeah.

So let's do a hypothetical.

Let's say that I am a developer
with a side project that

does not have any customers.

And I have 15 followers on twitter,
and I tweet three times a week.

And they're mostly interesting
articles that I find on hacker news.

What are five things that I should
do to grow my following and get

some customers for my side project.

Arvid: The first thing is stopped tweeting
into a void because the fact that you have

so few followers means that whenever you
tweet, when you write a tweet and send it

on Twitter, barely anybody will read it.

Like you, you can be pretty sure
that only one in 10 of your followers

will ever get to see anything.

That's just how Twitter's algorithm works.

Right?

You would think you tweet and they all
see it at some point in that timeline.

That's not the case.

Most people won't even
get it into that timeline.

And most of the people who do will
scroll over it because somebody

else that they find more interesting
has something else to say that.

That resonates more with them.

So it's super tough for somebody with no
audience to just tweet and hope that they

grow an audience from that doesn't work.

What does work is engaging
with people where they're

already having conversations?

It's like if you go

Michele: So like replying.

Arvid: yeah,

Essentially it's,

Michele: tweet myself, but

reply to other people.

Arvid: Yeah, contributes to something
like with all things in human

communication, standing there on your
little soap box and yelling into the

park that you're sending in will only
make people think you're kind of weird.

If you go to a party and you send
in the middle of the room and you

just start talking about the things
you like to, nobody in particular.

You will not attract people.

Like people will stay clear of you,
but if you join the conversation with

three or four, people have gathered,
and they're already talking about an

interesting topic that you just listen
for a couple seconds, maybe a couple

of minutes, and then you have something
that you can actually meaningfully

contribute that will make you interesting.

Right?

That's the perfect example.

Like if you go to a group of people
and you listen for a second, and then

you adjust what you have to say to
fit into their ongoing conversation.

They will look at you, invite you into
the group and now you're one of them.

And that is essentially
what Twitter is all about.

You join conversations, you join
communities, you establish yourself

as a contributor to this community, by
just replying to people with your ideas.

Maybe those three links that you've
been posting about are something

interesting that somebody else could
learn something from in an ongoing

conversation about a similar topic,
and you bring it to that conversation

instead of just tweeting it into the void.

That is the most simple.

Michele: step one, don't tweet into the
void, but reply to existing conversation.

Arvid: Yeah, and that kind of engagement.

That's what I kind of call it
on Twitter, it's to engage with

people that can take many shapes.

That can be a nice reply where
you add something that, you know,

it could just be a question.

It could be Okay.

Can you clarify this?

I didn't understand that part.

And then you get another conversation
going, you get an interaction with

the extra person that tweeted,
so now you have some sort of,

starting to Kindle a relationship
and connection with that person by

showing interest in that conversation.

Or you can invite somebody who, you
know, could benefit from being exposed

to this conversation and other expert
on Twitter, into the conversation.

Or you could disseminate the
conversation out by just retreating

it to your admittedly low follower
account, but you would still maybe

invite a couple of more people.

There are so many ways to engage with a
conversation other than just replying,

and you don't want to turn into this
kind of reply guy, person that just

replies all the time to try and get
into the buzz of the conversation.

So just like spread it out.

There's many different ways of
giving meaning and adding something

to an ongoing conversation.

And that brings me to a second point,
because that is something that you can do

when you're exposed to this conversations.

Right.

You have to see them happening to
be able to engage with them and

that kind of has a prerequisite and
that is following the right people.

So if you.

I don't know really where to source these
interesting conversations that you want

to join, you have to start with exploring
your space and following those influential

kind of you would call them influencers
or nexus communicators, or community

leaders, whatever you want to call them.

People who kind of control, or at least
very strongly influence the conversations

in a particular field in our space.

That would be people like
Courtland Allen, who hosts.

Indie hackers, podcasts, right?

People who are super exposed to so many,
many people or Rob walling who has a

startup sort of for the rest of us.

And you're kind of probably starting to
understand that podcast hosts are really

interesting people to follow on Twitter
because they're connected to every.

They're part of every conversation.

You, Michelle, you are
one of these people.

Now, if you follow you, you get
exposed to so many new people.

And if people follow me, they will
also get exposed to so many people.

Now, there are certain people in
any community that once you follow

them, you will be part or you at
least will see in your activity,

feed interesting things happening.

So that's the first thing
you have to do is to go out

there, find those nexus people.

I call this nexus discovery
because the nexus to me is

where everything comes together.

And you can do this by.

Going on Twitter now and looking at who
are the people with somewhat high-ish

follower counts, or at least a lot of
engagement in each community, following

them, looking at their followers,
seeing other people that you might

find interesting, following them, doing
some kind of recursion or looking at

Twitter lists that those people are on
and following the whole list, there are

many, many different ways of exposing
yourself to all these these conversations.

And then you just set notifications for
the people you'll find most interesting.

And you get actual engagement
notifications, so you can jump

right into a conversation.

when it happens.

If you do only one thing, this is what
you should do, follow the right people

and then just interact with them.

Michele: And I think something you're sort
of saying here is also that it's you find

that nexus person, for example, and it's
not just about replying to that nexus

person and trying to get them to follow
you or apply to you, which I think you

sort of alluded to the reply guy, right?

It's actually going in there and
sort of productively having the

conversation with the people who are
already in those mentions, like who are

already replying to the conversation.

So not necessarily, you know, replying
to your tweet, for example, and trying

to get a reply from you though, you
will probably reply because you are

you, but like, you know, seeing like,
oh, here's these 20 other people

who are following this conversation.

And they have interesting things to say.

And then, you know, having adding a
question or adding a nice comment to that.

And I guess I think a mistake I tend to
see is that people will like be critical

cause I think there's some, like there's
a space for being critical, but you

know, some people are socialized in
environments where you show your worth and

add value by being negative or critical.

And I don't, I'm curious to hear your
perspective on this like I find that

you know, negativity or criticism
on Twitter is really, really tricky

and I tend to avoid it entirely.

Arvid: Me too.

Absolutely.

Right.

Sorry for interrupting.

Do you, do you have anything else?

Michele: No, that was my question was

Arvid: Okay.

Michele: it was sort of like, what will
your take on, you know, should people

reply with something critical, if
they're trying to engage with others?

Arvid: So anything you do on

twitter is a performance.

That, that is one of the main
things that I have also understood.

Like, even if you're just doing it in
front of 20 or 30 people at public reply

to a public tweet by somebody else,
gets seen by three different entities.

That is you, obviously,
because you're part of it, the

person that you've applied to.

Everybody else, whoever gets to read it.

And some people forget that this group
of potentially millions of people

exists out there and every single one
of them will judge you for what you say.

So you always have to consider
that You are interacting

with another public persona.

I have a group of people that
are listening and are judgemental

in ways that you might not
understand might not comprehend.

You already mentioned the fact that
people are brought up in different ways.

I personally was brought
up in a pretty neutral way.

Like to me, it was fine to
criticize, but you should always

kind of see both Sites, right.

That was kind of the devil's advocate
situation that I was socialized into.

That is okay to do if you
announced that you're doing it.

So I now live with a Canadian and
here this straight up devil's advocate

perspective is not much appreciated.

So I have to kind of stop myself
from going there, even though it's

something that I often do and like
to do, because it's interesting on an

intellectual way in our conversations
in our home, it is not much appreciated.

And I it's fine because
we talk about it and.

But on Twitter, you don't
get to talk about this.

For two reasons, first off, the people
who are listening, they don't talk to you.

They don't interact with you.

They just read, they
are the lurkers, right?

The potentially millions of people
that are reading this public

interaction that you're having with
somebody else, they don't tell you

what they think They just judge you.

And second in the medium of
text, there is no subtext.

There is no nuance.

There is no like hidden subtlety,
text is text and everybody interprets

that, text the way they read it.

So that is something that is
incredibly hard to pull off

if you want to be critical.

So I would never be just critical.

I would always either preface it with
devil's advocate or whatever you can

do to make sure that people understand
that, this is not criticality.

This is not like an ad hominem
situation where you attack the person.

Okay.

I want to talk about the argument,
but honestly, I don't do this at all.

I think I'm like you, I want Twitter to
be an empowering and positive space and,

everything that I add to a conversation
will it's supposed to be positive and

helping other people, which is that the
other side of doing this as a performance.

So it's a performative act because you
want to help other People If that is

my, the reason why I go to Twitter,
one of my core values is empowerment

is helping other people Uh, become
better at whatever they want to do.

So if that is why I'm there, then
every single thing I do, at least

a little bit have that as its goal.

So just crushing somebody's
dream or negating somebody's

opinion will not do this.

Right.

It's gonna need to the opposite.

It's going to be a disempowerment effect.

So I don't want to do that.

And that is why I publicly don't do this.

I don't do it privately either.

If there's something that is flat out
wrong, I will still try to always see

the other person as somebody who still
worth being friendly to, and just kind to

like showing them my perspective without
pushing it towards them or onto them.

And that's how I go about this.

So, and, and if you're trying to build
an audience, if you're trying to build

a following of kind people, a friendly
people, people like you, or people who

you want to be like you, well, then
don't the aggressive towards them.

Don't be critical towards some,
just give them the room to be,

themselves and to have their own
opinions and respect them for that.

It's really all I can say to this.

So yeah, I would definitely just
caution anybody out there to be

critical because Twitter is about
like helping other people succeed.

Right and PR critical
stuff, rarely ever does it.

Cause it gets misinterpreted.

Michele: I think that idea that, you know,
everything on Twitter is a performance.

People will be judging you and
interpreting it differently than

you may be hoping for, I think
that's what freaks people out about.

Arvid: Yeah, I can see that.

The thing is, it's not like that.

That's the one thing about Twitter
that once you, once you live with that

for a little bit, you get used to it.

You're always both on a stage and
you're on a couch at the same time.

You're on a couch with your buddies, like
the four or five friends that you have.

And in any given conversation on
Twitter you, you kind of, you know,

exchanging little things with them
and you're having a nice conversation.

And at the same time, you're on a stage in
front of the millions potentially, right?

Because it just takes one viral
tweet for the thing to be exposed

to literally millions of people.

And you always have to live with the fact
that you're doing both at the same time

and you don't know which is currently.

It's tough because that's just what
a public medium, like Twitter does.

Like Facebook is kind of different.

If you're doing something in a
Facebook group, it usually stays in the

Facebook group or in a forum, right.

It stays in this little community,
but Twitter has this potential of this

breakout effect where you get out of your
community and you exposed to the whole

world for good, or for bad that it makes
this such a weird balance to think about.

Honestly, everything you do in
marketing is performative to begin

with, and Twitter is marketing
yourself, marketing your personal brand.

You're doing something intentionally.

You're sharing something because
you want people to buy it or you're

sharing something because you want
people to donate to a charity or

you just want to grow your, their
awareness of you as a brand or as a

person or your project, whatever the
reason is you're on Twitter you're

doing it for to reach a certain goal.

So any step along the way
is an intentional tactical

or strategic implementation
of action towards that goal.

That makes it performative to begin with.

Because you're doing it in front of
an audience that you want to use in

a certain way, or you want people
to react to you in a certain way.

I can understand how introverts and I
consider myself one, it may not sound

like it, but I kind of feel like one
and I always felt like one have a lot of

trouble with, and I'm only this outspoken
about everything that I'm doing, because

I've been speaking about it for years.

Like in the beginning, I was
also kind of shy, I didn't know

what to say and how to phrase it,
then this is my second language.

So, You know, that's a whole
other level on top of it.

But you know, like if you care about.

And you surround yourself with the
right people, and I count you as one

of these people for me, like you are an
amazing person that is extremely kind and

supportive, and you're the tide that lifts
all the boats in our community as well.

Well, how could I not want to talk to you?

How could I not want to
share things with you?

Right.

That's why I'm doing this because I've
surrounded myself with wonderful people

that have the same goals that I have,
which is making the internet economy,

a thing for people to explore, being a
creator, being a writer, being a SaaS

entrepreneur, whatever it is making
this a possibility for more people.

And if that is my goal, I can live
with the fact that people are watching.

In fact, I embrace that and I try to be
as authentically me as possible while

knowing that there is like 50,000 people
listening to everything I'm saying it's,

it's, it's a super hard balance to strike
and it definitely takes some reflecting,

but once you understand it, once you
accept it, you can use it for good.

That's my perspective.

Michele: You are incredibly kind Arvid
you know, it strikes me that, I've

said how I think the reason why I'm was
able to write a book about interviewing

users and about active listening is
because I really had to learn it myself.

I had to really get comfortable with
it at a level that most people don't,

and it strikes me that perhaps you, as
an introvert, you know, had to learn

marketing, had to learn this performance
side of it and had to learn how, you

know, Twitter is about relationships.

And it's a sort of coffee shop,
bulletin board, so to speak, like it

strikes me that, because you're an
introvert you had to learn all of these

particularities sort of about how the
ecosystem of Twitter works, because

it did not come naturally to you.

And I wonder how, like, I think
of my example, person with 15

followers and their side project.

They're listening to this and
thinking, oh my God, the whole thing

is a performance and people are going
to judge me and I could go viral

and I have to reply to these famous
people, but I actually don't reply

to them, I reply to the other people.

And then somehow all of this is going
to get me customers for my side project.

And I'm like, where am I
going to spend all this time?

Replying to people?

I already have a job and I have a
family, and I don't have very much time.

Shouldn't I just be building features
instead and, oh, and by the way, I could

accidentally criticize someone and then
go viral, and then everyone hates me.

Like, no.

And so it kind of strikes me as,
emotionally, what was the transition for

you getting comfortable with the idea
of like, of putting yourself out there

more and having these conversations.

Arvid: Hm.

I'm trying not to be too, too
sarcastic here, but the first thing

that came to my mind just now was,
well, I noticed that nobody cared.

That's kind of my first experience
was really, nobody cared.

Nobody cared about the things
I said in the beginning.

And, and still to this day, nobody really
seems to care about the mistakes I make.

Let me just rephrase that
into a more relative terms.

When I launched my course, whitewater
course, that launched tweet, I had

a typo in it and, I just noticed
that like 30 seconds after I tweeted

it out and I was like oh no, I have
a typo in my launch tweet, people

are going to see this forever.

And I was just about to delete the tweet
when I got a notification on my phone that

the first person had bought my course.

I couldn't even delete my launch
tweet fast enough for people to

not care about my typo instilled
by it and purchase my info product.

I've had these moments so often, I
thought, oh no, this is the worst.

I made a mistake and nobody noticed it.

And people only really cared
about the thing that actually gave

them something of value right.

I let it just stay on,
it's still in my pin tweet.

Like there's a quotation
mark in the wrong place.

It's really not a problem.

Nobody really sees that.

And nobody cares about it.

People who care about the
thing that I helped them.

Not my own insecurities
about how I phrased it.

Right.

That's, that's kind of one of the
things that I noticed very quickly.

And that is a recent example,
but forever on Twitter that I

started writing in public and
launching my blog posts and stuff.

The people who cared about it
in a way that I could actually

help them in their lives, they
cared about the important stuff.

They cared about the stuff
that actually impacted them.

They didn't care about my
shortcomings, my imposter syndrome,

my nervousness of whatever.

They just don't care about it because
if everybody on this planet cares

about one person and that's mostly.

And once you understand that people
don't care about what you care about,

unless you are actively preventing
them from reaching their goals.

Really what it is, you can
do almost anything you can

experiment with your stuff.

You can tweet about things
that you find interesting.

Look at if it creates resonance
With people, you can give people.

Positive or critical responses,
whatever it is, people won't really

care until you step too far and you
will learn this, which is why starting

with these kinds of experiments.

When you don't have many followers
is actually the best thing you

can do, because then you're not
exposed to hundreds of thousands of

people you're just exposed to 20.

And if you say something that nobody
cares about while you will see, because

none of those people will react to it.

Say something that like three or
four care about it, then you've

got to hit and then you can learn
from that and write more like that.

Right?

It's like, really the people
will give you a lot of leeway if

you're just friendly with them.

If you're kind to them, if you
support them in what they are

doing, you can almost do anything.

And create these kinds
of nightmare scenarios.

And yeah, it's the same, like in
my course, I totally miss attribute

a book title to another author.

In the course, I say that Derek Sivers
wrote start with why, which you obviously

didn't, that was Simon Sinek, but I
just mixed it up during a recording.

My brain went into a weird state that I
set the wrong name and It took people,

it took like a hundred or something
students to actually start the course

two for one to figure this out.

Like the other 99 didn't care
to take care more about what the

course can actually teach them.

Then the little mistake that
I made while recording it.

So if that can happen at that
scale, you tweeting something

weird, that will also be fine.

And the thing is about Twitter,
even though it's performative.

And if you're an introvert that
already is hard to talk to people,

but you can always consider Twitter,
a place where you find friends.

You making friends, you finding
people just like yourself, and

you're just exchanging stuff
that you both find interesting.

It's like a meetup,
you know, where you go,

you don't really know the people,
but you know, they have to success

I'm interested because you're both
going to the JavaScript meetup.

Well, I guess everybody here likes.

Right.

So it's the same on Twitter.

If you find those people, those nexus
people that have the same interest

as you have, well, their audience
will have the exact same interests.

So whenever you interact with the,
let's say with JavaScript engineering,

you interact with somebody who's
big in the JavaScript community

and you interact with their tweets.

You're now exposed to this audience of
other people who also love JavaScript.

Or love, hate JavaScripts.

That's maybe not the perfect
example, but you know, you're

exposing yourself to an audience
of at least intersecting interests.

And that's where this audience
audition concept comes in, that they

kind of hinted at earlier, right?

You're not interacting with
the JavaScript influence.

So you don't want them to follow you.

You want their audience to follow
you because they have 40,000

people that are following them.

You want a couple of those
people to be interested in you.

That's why you interact with the
influencer stuff, not to get the

influencers attention, but to get
the attention of the pre filtered

audience that they have that is
already really compatible with you.

And if you consider Twitter making
friends with other people who are.

Then it's so much easier.

It's so much more enjoyable too,
because then it becomes more of the

couch and less of the stage, right.

You always have to, at some point
consider that you are in a stage,

but that really only happens when
you have a couple thousand followers.

Anything below that, most people will
recognize you as one of them, right?

There is no big exposure.

It's not that you are one of those huge
accounts that everybody wants to follow.

You're just a person interacting
with other people, and making

friends is very easy at that point.

And if you consider every interaction
that you have as a potential of making

friends, Then you will also speak to
people differently because if you want

to make a friend, you don't go there
and tell them about your products.

Right?

Imagine that if that was how we
made friends, like you go to a

person at a party and you tell
them, Hey, I have this cool product.

It's only $10 when you buy it.

Nobody does that because that's not how
you built a relationship with a person.

You go there.

SMA, how are you doing?

What do you do?

And what do you find?

Interesting.

How do you know the host that
you asked them about themselves?

You asked them to tell them
more about you so you can tell.

About yourself and,
build on common ground.

That's how you do this in real life.

Why wouldn't you do it on Twitter?

Why would you post stuff?

Why would you put links to your newsletter
as the very first thing you do when

you interact with the new person?

That's not how you do it.

You make friends on Twitter and once
you understand that it becomes so

much easier and so much less scary.

Michele: Twitter to find friends.

Right.

I feel like wasn't that the tagline,
that the place for friends was not like

Facebook or mySpace, maybe their tagline.

Right.

It was like, I think maybe

Arvid: We're kind of dating ourselves.

See, I think

Michele: Hey, my space
taught me how to code.

So

Arvid: Isn't that amazing?

I think I did a couple of cool
backgrounds back then as well.

Um,

Michele: But so, you know, if you want to
grow your following on Twitter, if you're

on Twitter, cause you want people to buy
your stuff for, you know, except your

conference pitches or whatever they are.

Be a friend.

Don't be somebody standing with a
megaphone on a soapbox, you know, interact

with people, and be a real person.

And be a pleasant person,
at the party, so to speak.

Arvid: That's where
opportunity comes from, right?

It's not from them
buying an ebook for $10.

It's from them remembering you when
a, another gigantic project comes up

and they need somebody to, do copies.

Or when, a potential partnership as,
as in the making and they wonder what

would be the best person to partner with.

Those are the opportunities you're
seeking, not the $10 from one interaction.

That's the transactional nature
of sales and marketing that is so

incompatible with relationship building.

Right.

You, you don't.

Yeah.

You don't

Michele: like build
relationships on Twitter.

I feel like I heard someone say
once that Twitter is the product

that LinkedIn wants to do.

Arvid: Yeah, I guess.

Yeah.

And that's because Twitter allows people
to use Twitter however they want to,

like LinkedIn is very prescriptive in
the way you interact with each other.

Just look at how people are
even allowed to connect.

Right?

You have to allow people
to connect with you.

And the moment you've got some notoriety
on LinkedIn, people have to dig really

deep to connect with you bring up a reason
to do it, have to link like oh, I went to

the same school as them for somebody, for
some reason, that is why you want to allow

people to interact with other people.

This social graph on linkedIn is so
selective and so hard to establish.

While on Twitter, you don't
even need to follow an account

to get their information.

You can just follow a list with where
they are on or you just follow a person

that consistently retweets from that
account and you get exposed to new people.

Twitter is just so.

Oh, I have a free space that people
can use in any shape they want.

And obviously that creates so
much more opportunity because

it allows for serendipity.

LinkedIn does not allow for serendipity.

Allows for really, really targeted
interactions, but on Twitter,

anything can happen for good or bad.

Right?

You have the whole shitstorm situation
and I guess is there an opposite

of a shitstorm, like a windfall.

Love

Michele: storm.

Arvid: and lots

of love storm.

Yeah.

But where people, all of a sudden get
empowered and exposed to an audience of

millions and their life changes in a day.

Right.

You have that too.

And it's one of the most wonderful things
to see when people have so much success,

that they are just swept into a new
level of existence, just from a tweet.

I just find that wonderful and often
it's cute animals and stuff, but you

know, there are still also people who do
meaningful things that have impact that

now get exposed to so much larger audience
and have so much more impact for the good.

that is what Twitter allows you to do.

And obviously that is in my eyes,
that for somebody who has empowerment

and support and motivation as my core
values, that is the product for me.

I could not do what I'm doing on LinkedIn
but I can definitely do it on Twitter.

And I I'm really grateful for that.

Michele: Twitter as an
incredibly powerful platform.

And this here has been a very
powerful mini masterclass in using.

Effectively.

Thank you so much for coming on today.

If people want to, well, I
mean, where can people find you.

Arvid: Well, this will surprise you,
but they could find me on twitter.

Well, yeah, that's obviously the jump
off point for everything I'm doing.

I'm on Twitter at arvidkahl
ARVID KAHL and I have a blog too.

It's called the bootstrap founder,
which you know, like where I write

all my weekly blog posts and I have
a podcast there as well, and all my

books and stuff are linked there, but
honestly just really interact with me on

Twitter because that's what I like most.

Because that's how you build a
relationship with me by coming

to a Twitter and talking to me.

And I want that because I want
to, talk to you dear listener.

But honestly, because I think I can
learn from every person out there, and

I hope that I can teach something to any
person out there a little bit, at least.

So, yeah.

My DMS are open.

And that is something interesting when
you have 50,000 followers, but I will

still try and respond to every single DM
and yeah, that's where you can find me.

And that's what I would
like you to meet me.

Michele: Well, Arvid I will see you
and everybody else around on Twitter.

Thank you so much.

Arvid: Absolutely.

Thanks so much.

for having me.