Doing Different Things, Doing Things Differently
Colleen digs into Michele's feels about writing a book. They also talk about why Michele won't take meetings with potential acquirers.
Michele Hansen 0:00
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Colleen Schnettler 0:58
So Michele, this week, I had a prospective customer interview, which was a new experience and a lot of fun.
Michele Hansen
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah. And so what in order to prep for that interview, I had to search through all of my emails to find all of your customer interview scripts.
Michele Hansen
I know it wasn't too hard to search.
Colleen Schnettler
Well, the problem is, is you also email me as Michele the human so it was like I was like how do I feel? Sure, like human turtle shell the robot was like how where's my Deploying Empathy, Michele's Customer Research filter. But you know what I was thinking as I was sorting through my emails trying to isolate all of your scripts.
Michele Hansen 1:41
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler 1:43
I was thinking it'd be sure be nice if I had this in a book format.
Michele Hansen 1:49
You aren't the first person to say that, Colleen.
Colleen Schnettler 1:52
So tell me your thoughts on it.
Michele Hansen 1:54
So you know, it's kind of funny how the newsletter came about, because I think I had just gotten off of a mentoring call with a founder. And I realized as I was sort of sending them, they wanted to know about doing customer interviews. And I was typing up this email to them. And it's like, 10, paragraphs long. And it's like, this book is really good. But like, only these chapters are relevant for you. And like, this book doesn't go in enough detail. So like, listen to this podcast, but then also like, here's this worksheet, and it was like, so disorganized. And I also felt like I was writing the same email over and over and over again. And I was like, You know what, this is this, maybe this is a book. And then it was like, but everyone who has ever written a book has told me not to write a book, and that it's very lonely and difficult and, like, sounds like an awful experience. So maybe I shouldn't write a book like, and, and then I grant it, like, tweeted out, and everyone's like, Oh, my God, write a book. And I was like, okay, so I was like, You know what, I'll read it as a newsletter. If people like it, it becomes a live rough draft. If not, it's just a newsletter, and like, I can stop doing it. And like, no one's paying me for anything. And so as it's gone on, I have accepted the fact that maybe it is a book. But I've never written a book before. I've never marketed a book before. I've read a lot of them. I have not read books about writing or selling a book. Um, so it's been it's been kind of an interesting experience. It's a whole new world for me.
Colleen Schnettler 3:33
Yeah. Because you don't have any other informational products. Right?
Michele Hansen 3:39
Okay, like, I guess this podcast is technically an info product. I mean, but really, it's just forces us to, like keep up our weekly meetings. Like, I mean, like, I guess we have advertisers like technically but you know, it's like, really, that's why we're doing this, like, we love you, listeners. But truly, this is just for Colleen and I.
Colleen Schnettler 4:01
So it seems like so I obviously subscribe to your newsletter when you started it. You have more content that I can read? Like, it seems like there's a there's just so much in your brain that you want to get out about this.
Michele Hansen 4:14
I feel like I'm Marie Kondo in my head, like I'm just getting it all out. You know, like it's just like cleaning out my closet and it's like all of these things have been just like sitting there marinating for years now and kind of coming out sporadically as as necessary. And of course, he like sort of use them and build on them in my work. But yeah, it just feels like I just have all of this stuff. And it's like alright, here is like Michele's mental yardsale, my book about customer research.
Colleen Schnettler 4:45
So how do you feel about turning all of this information into a book like how's the process been and how are you feeling about it?
Michele Hansen 4:55
So if I tell myself that I'm just writing a newsletter and not a book, great. If I tell myself that I'm writing a book, and then I open the Google Doc and I see that blinking cursor, terrified.
Colleen Schnettler 5:10
Too much pressure.
Michele Hansen 5:11
I don't know, it just feels like a lot. Like and it's just something I haven't done before. I'm probably way under estimating how long it's going to take to go from like, newsletter rough draft to actual finished product, nevermind even having something that's just like a straight PDF, right of without any illustrations or any like, they're like, there's so many steps to this.
And I've been trying to read about it. Like Alex Hillman published a lot of great stuff after writing his book, Tiny MBA last year, that's been really helpful for me. But yeah, I mean, it feels overwhelming, and kind of like we were talking about last week, but I think having ADD sort of plays into this, because like, you know, partly, like I love having multiple projects at a time, like, I can't just have one thing I'm working on. And so that's partly where the newsletter comes from. But also then staring down a huge task that I have never done before is really, really intimidating to me.
Colleen Schnettler 6:13
Yeah, and I assume, like the mechanics of writing and selling a book is totally different than the mechanics of building and selling a SaaS or selling.
Michele Hansen 6:24
Yeah. Like, you know, like, with a SaaS, I feel like, you know, all people are googling for what they need, right? Like, they're like, how do you do this. And then as long as you have a landing page that says, Here's how you can do this, like, and then you do that, and then they pay you like, and it's very straightforward in terms of like delivering the value to someone.
I feel like with a book, it's a lot harder, like, I feel like I have to convince people that they need it. I mean, especially like, this is a hard thing that I'm trying to get, like doing interviews is, you know, to how I feel about it being you know, writing this book being this huge, monumental task that I don't know how to do that feels scary. A lot of people feel that way about interviews. So I can definitely, you know, empathize with my own reader about about that, that kind of feeling.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's very, very different than what I've done before. Just a lot of the marketing techniques are very different. And I admit that I, you know, when I start thinking about it, like, part of me is just like, I'm just gonna, like, print the Google Doc into a PDF and post it on my blog for free and go hide in the corner and call it a day. Like, I'm not actually like marketing. But then I'm like, No, you know, what, I prefer physical books. And I can do the Amazon print on demand thing. And if there was this book, I would want it in a physical book. And so that should at least like drive me through, like I keep reminding myself of what I want out of this.
Colleen Schnettler 8:01
Yeah. So are you is what do you say your motivating factor is? Because you've gotten so much demand for it? Or is it because this is something you want to do for yourself?
Michele Hansen 8:12
This is so it's mostly -- this is like 75%, this is something that I need myself, like, as I mentioned, like, having mentoring calls with people and needing to, like have one place to send them, that's a good book for basically for bootstrappers and really small teams on understanding their customers, I just, I don't feel like I have that book that is in enough detail and is at the right level and has the right combination of information. So it's like partly saving myself time in the long run by having that book. I think for a long time, I've had a feeling that I like, you know, I had a book in me somewhere. So there's like a little bit of that going on. But but mostly it's it's that kind of having one central place to send people for my own purposes. It's been it's been really interesting what people have said in response to the newsletter, too.
Colleen Schnettler 9:06
Yeah.
Michele Hansen 9:08
Yeah, so that's kind of that's helping me keep going, though I have I've started to appreciate how lonely writing is. You know, I feel like you hear writers talk about writing and they just they talk about how lonely it is. And I'm not sure if this is like validating each other's experiences or you know, kind of this like badge of honor that they went through this lonely process or like their hazing other would be writers to like scare them away. There's a mix of things going on.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah
Michele Hansen
But I feel like writing a newsletter makes it more social, right? And so like, whenever I encounter things that I'm like, Oh my God, this feels scary. like turning all this into a Google Doc like editing it all down and reformatting it like spending a month in a Google Doc on my own. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I don't have to do that. I decided I was doing this in public. I decided I was going to take what is apparently normally a lonely process and make it a social one. Like I can send You know, when I have edited something into what feels like a full chapter, I can send that out, right? Like people have subscribed knowing that this is a work in progress. So yeah, and they're not paying for it either. So they can just unsubscribe. Right? So.
Colleen Schnettler 10:14
Right. You said earlier that you felt that marketing a book was totally different than like marketing your product. What I don't what's the nuance there?
Michele Hansen 10:24
Yeah, I feel like books are, you know, sometimes I'm looking for a specific book, but but very often, you you there's some kind of convincing that has to happen.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah
Michele Hansen
You I think something I'm thinking about, as I as I write this, and I've heard this from people who are experienced UX researchers or product managers is that they don't feel like they have a book to recommend people who are who are like, at this sort of stage. And so I think kind of, like, writing it to be something that's recommended to other people, but not necessarily used by the person you're selling it to was really interesting. But you know, you see a lot of people doing just different tactics, like, you know, having a, you know, marketing campaign that drips out, you know, a chapter a day and induces someone to buy with a discount. And like, all that, kind of like we we don't do any of that. Like, we don't do write any sales emails, we don't send sales emails ever. Like, we'll be like, Hey, we have a new feature like, cool. See you in six months. Like I think we have literally sent one marketing email in the past year. We do a lot of SEO instead. But so but we don't really ever do stuff with like, here's this bundle, where you get, you know, the the ebook and the audio book, and then you get access to these five interviews and like, I can see the value of that kind of stuff. But I have never done that before. And so that, yeah, it's just a whole new kind of work for me.
Colleen Schnettler 11:53
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, honestly, even when I know I'm being dripped to I love a good drip campaign, like they remind you every week that you love them, I do and like me at all, like, I bought someone's book, and he's got a great drip campaign. Like, it's like, it's like on a random interval. It's like, every 13 days, he'll send an email. I'm like, Oh, I like this. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.
Michele Hansen 12:19
I get satisfaction out of unsubscribing to things. And I've actually I've had people like I had someone sign up for the newsletter yesterday, and saying how much they appreciated that I wasn't upselling them in the newsletter, like so these reinforcing my like, like, wait, make money? Yes. Make a PDF and hide in a corner approach.
Colleen Schnettler 12:41
No, I think it's gonna be afraid. I mean, this new.
Michele Hansen 12:46
I'm freaking out, man.
Colleen Schnettler 12:47
talked to you. Are you like, I talked to you every week, and I still get value out of what you send in the newsletter.
Michele Hansen 12:57
I appreciate that.
Colleen Schnettler 12:57
I mean, what makes you freak out about it just the way you said it wasn't the pressure. It's it's that kind of salesy deal.
Michele Hansen 13:04
Yeah, a little bit of that. I think it's just, it's just a very big project, like, and I think there's a -- to come back to that, which I think, you know, a question that I think you I guess, is a question you've had, and a lot of other people starting a company have, which is can I deliver something that is valuable enough that I feel ethically okay, taking people's money? Right, like, Can I like is what I'm doing something that is worth them paying the money? Not less a question of, can I make something they will pay for which, you know, is a question to figure out, but more of that sort of I don't know, that sort of existential level of is what I'm making, like, is that worth them paying for? And I think that's something that, you know, I don't struggle with that in SaaS, but for some reason, I struggle with that with an info product. Interesting.
Colleen Schnettler 14:01
Well, I for one, am looking forward to it. And when you think about it, so I was thinking about this after my interview on Wednesday. I know you don't know what you're going to price your book at. But if I get one sale, out of like, for one piece of useful information, like my minimum price is $35. So if your book is less than $35, which I assume it's going to be like, it's already valuable to me, right? I only have to get one person to make that worth my worth my money.
Michele Hansen 14:30
Yeah, I guess. So. I was thinking about pricing yesterday. And I think someone convinced me that it should be $29. So for both the ebook and the physical version, and I guess there would be an audiobook in there too. So yeah, I guess the price point is right.
Colleen Schnettler 14:49
Yes, I love this idea. I can't wait to continue to hear about this. And I would like to say, I feel like I told you to write a book six months ago. I feel like yeah, it took hold. So I'm super pumped. And I also really, really like physical books. Like, I want to hold it in my hand, I want to put post it notes on like the customer interview script pages, like.
Michele Hansen 15:13
Yeah, I got it. Like I actually I was sort of working on the intro this morning. And like, I have something in it that's like, go ahead and dog ear the pages, like write on it like, and then I even have a guide at the beginning that tells people how to skip around through the book based on what they're trying to do.
Colleen Schnettler
That's awesome.
Michele Hansen
Like I get I'm trying to design it in a way that's like, Okay, how do I get out of people's way? Right, because I think a lot of books on this are written like that, like, they're really good, but they have a lot on the philosophy of Jobs To Be Bone. And if you're just trying to increase your MRR, from like, 100 to 200 a month, like, you do not want to read an academic tome on activity theory. I do. But like, I just have, I have no illusions that that is not what you have come here for. And so maybe like, how can I make like, you know, sort of power packs for this book that's like, okay, go here, go here, go here. Maybe you'll come back to the book. Maybe you won't, but hopefully you at least get something out of it. Yeah, yeah, there's this really interesting blog post that someone sent me on, like giving a presentation and thinking of yourself as a user interface. And like, when you're doing a presentation, it's like you are a UI. And your job is like people aren't there to see you. There's they're there to like, get some outcome out of it. And so how do you structure how you present that as a UI, right? I'll have to link to it in the show notes. But it was super interesting. And it's definitely helping me structure this, which I think is helpful for something that feels overwhelming is like structuring my thinking.
Colleen Schnettler 16:50
Yeah, and I have to say, like, I have purchased and read, not quite as many as you but a lot of books that are aimed at like early stage founders. And the problem with all of these books is none of them are really focused on what I'm trying to do, which is a small single person, founder, they're all trying to either walk the line of addressing both. But like books, we've talked about, like Lean Startup, it's a great book, I don't have $10 million in venture funding. Like that doesn't mean we're in two different places, right? I just bought another book, which is about positioning, which is good. But again, the author is trying to address like a more like larger companies. And so the things that she suggests, like I don't have a data analysis team, I don't like you, I don't have my own UI/UX person, like, you know, so I love that you're so focused on like, here's -- I loved the scripts, I think that's probably like everyone's favorite. I bet if you took a poll, that would be everyone's favorite, because it's like, here is literally what you should say.
Michele Hansen 17:51
Like, that's, like, a bit of big motivation for me is that there are so many good books on this and and you know, to what you're saying, from the UX side, a lot of them are like, so, you know, the first thing to talk about is getting a budget for research consultants in this might be $100,000 to $200,000. If you're doing remote interviewing, you can be and it's like, dude, like, this is not the situation like we're in and I feel like that really turns people off. But yeah, give it like, an even the best books will be like, you know, here's what you say like, Don't interrupt them and ask follow up questions. And it's like, Okay, what what are those follow up questions like, what, like, you can't just pick like, bullet points on this for, right. Yeah. Anyway.
Colleen Schnettler 18:37
Well, cool. Well, I'm sure everyone, myself included, is will be anxiously awaiting, to see how this turns out for you.
Michele Hansen 18:49
You can all follow now it's my turn to be the like, the person who is trying to figure something new out and is sort of wandering around, lost and freaking out.
Colleen Schnettler 19:00
So there was something else I wanted to talk to you about today.
Michele Hansen
Okay.
Colleen Schnettler
You mentioned to me privately, that you have been getting some people interested in acquiring your company.
Michele Hansen 19:13
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler 19:15
So are you gonna be a bazillionaire? and move to Hawaii? Like, what are you gonna sell?
Michele Hansen 19:21
No, we don't want to sell, which I think is so this is something
Colleen Schnettler 19:24
Yeah. Tell me more about this.
Michele Hansen 19:26
Yeah, I think that always surprises people that we, we don't want to sell and, you know, we don't have anyone externally who has any sort of, you know, incentives or say in this so so we don't have to. Yeah, we had to separate people, you know, and it wasn't they didn't write us an email that was says, Hello, here is $10 million sign, you know, it was like a meeting and chat and get to know each other and you know, everything and we're like, though, like I'm not gonna waste your time. Like we're not interested and hey, people are always really surprised that like, we don't have a number and that we don't want to be acquired, we just, like want to do what we do.
Colleen Schnettler 20:11
I would love to know more about that, I feel like, it seems like a lot of the people in the small business world, that's their goal is to become acquired. And I wasn't kidding. So they can have a lot of money, and just go do I don't know, whatever. So tell me more about you guys not wanting to be acquired ever.
Michele Hansen 20:30
I mean, we, we like what we do, you know, I consider it, you know, I feel like I have achieved the success I want to by being able to work from home, with my spouse on something I enjoy for customers that I enjoy working with on something where I feel like I learned new things all the time. And you know, who knows, I may look back, you know, at some point and be like, Oh, you sweet summer child, you should have taken that money when it was offered.
I feel like that's like, the peak of professional achievement, for me is like, getting to work from home with my husband like that. That, to me is great. And, you know, so I mean, there's a lot of people who want to get acquired, and you know, they want that kind of financial freedom. And those are all valid things to want. And we're all allowed to want different things, and we just know what we want, and that getting acquired. Like, it would not only not give us those things, it would actually set us backward, because then we would just have to find another business to start. And that's hard. Like that just starting a business is hard, right? Like, there's no two ways about it. And like, we already have one, so I don't know why I would put myself through that again.
Colleen Schnettler 21:51
I love that.
Michele Hansen 21:52
You know, and then I have people who are like you people don't believe me, when I say there isn't a number like I remember it was giving a talk to an MBA class a couple of years ago. And they just could not believe that there was no number and they're like, what if it was $100 million, like $500 million, $5 million, you know, whatever it was, and I was like, I just, I don't know, like, I don't need that. And you know, I've had people say like, well, then you could start your own charitable foundation like, I don't need I don't feel the need to do that. Like, I love when people do that. That's great. But like, I don't need more.
So a couple weeks ago, we're talking about the Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. And he has this story he tells at one point in the book, which so you know, there was one time when when Kurt Vonnegut and Joseph Heller, the writer, were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. And he said, Kurt Vonnegut said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel Catch 22 earned in its entire history?" And Joe Heller said, "I've got something he can never have." And Vonnegut says, "What on earth could that be Joe?" And Heller says, "The knowledge that I've got enough."
Colleen Schnettler 23:22
That's nice.
Michele Hansen 23:24
Yeah, I don't I don't need to be a billionaire. Like, I'm, I'm cool with that.
Colleen Schnettler 23:30
Okay, did you at least find out what they were going to offer you? Or does it not only get like.
Michele Hansen 23:34
I don't know, I don't want to waste everybody's time. And besides, like, some of them are in California. And if I want to do a call with California, that's at nine o'clock my time and I only do those for customers? Like Yeah, why? Like I could be reading a book.
Colleen Schnettler 23:48
This is fascinating to me.
Michele Hansen 23:51
It's the Michele's psychology episode.
Colleen Schnettler 23:53
Right? Like, I want me a beach house. That's what I want, like. So this is just like, fascinating to me. So basically, you guys are just like, no, like, we're happy. I mean, that's wonderful, too, though. We've talked to people who have sold their businesses. And it does seem to put you in kind of like, what do I do now state? Not that that's bad. But I can definitely see like, you love what you're doing. So why would you change it?
Michele Hansen 24:19
Yeah, and I mean, you know, our business isn't perfect, but like, basically, anything I might want to change is is solvable. And it's not solvable by other people's money. Right?
Colleen Schnettler
Right.
Michele Hansen
And so this is just how things are and you know, I can never know what's going to happen in the future. Like, we want this business to run as long as we can. This may not you know, we'll probably have multiple businesses in our lives, right. But where we are now we we don't have a reason to change. And sometimes people build companies to have them be acquired and like that's cool. That's, that's valid. And, but but they don't and I think, you know, I think so much of the conversation about software is dominated by it's still dominated by the, the, you know, the Silicon Valley kind of approach to things where, of course, you need to exit like, that's part of your business plan from the very beginning. But right, like, it's okay to do something different. Like we have a different set of incentives at play here.
Colleen Schnettler 25:28
Would you describe your business as a lifestyle business?
Michele Hansen 25:33
Oh man, I hate that phrase.
Colleen Schnettler 25:34
Really tell me? Because like, I've came across that I want to say in the lean startup, and like, I didn't really realize that was a thing.
Michele Hansen 25:42
I feel it is so condescending, because it's like, it does. Okay, because I don't want to spend like my whole world, like my life, you know, flying around the world for sales meetings and having my, you know, working 70 hours a week, like, it's apparently a lifestyle business, like, why should I apologize that I can, like, be here when, you know, my daughter has a sports game, or like, when she's home from school? Or? Like, I don't know, I think it's people projecting their own you know, the downsides of the approach they have taken onto other people, and they don't really think that's fair.
Their approach is valid, like, I like 20 years from now, I could want to start a business that requires funding, and I could be doing that whole, you know, flying around for sales meetings. And, you know, I don't think I would build a company that requires me working 70 hours a week, or certainly does not require anyone working for me to work 70 hours a week. Yeah, but no, I don't. Like, I don't want that. And I also don't consider that the next level either.
Like, I think that there's people kind of think of this like ladder of products, where, you know, it's like, you start out with affiliate marketing, and then you go to info products, and then you go to consulting, and then you go to like SaaS, and then and then like it, but you go to bootstrap SaaS first, and then you go to venture or whatever, and like, and there's kind of this, like, moral superiority increase at each level, right? I reject that. And I guess, as someone who is, you know, currently going from SaaS to infoproducts, like, you know, some people might say, I'm going backwards. I reject that paradigm. I think whatever you want to do as a business, provided you are doing so ethically and making something that is valuable for people and you know, genuine, then that's fine. But I think it just goes into other people's set of expectations and allowing ourselves to reject those and have our own world view of it instead.
Colleen Schnettler 27:44
Yeah, well, I love that. I love that you guys know what you want. And, you know, you're not like you said, You're not even gonna waste their time by having a meeting.
Michele Hansen 27:54
Yeah, I'm sure I'll run into these people at a conference or whatnot, like, there will be opportunities to meet them. And, but like, we're not, we're not in a rush. There's nobody who is telling us to sell and, you know, and and it really helps that we're both agreed on this, like, I've heard of a lot of co-founder conflict coming from one party wanting to sell and the other one not wanting to. Yeah, but like, thankfully, we are both 100% agreed on this.
Colleen Schnettler 28:26
That's great. Probably helps it you're married. I mean, in terms of like, co-founder conflict, do you think there's less of that? Because you're married
Michele Hansen 28:32
is such a funny question. Because, you know, I tell people who don't run businesses, with their spouses that we run a business together, and nine times out of 10, the reaction I get is, Oh, my God, we could never do that we would kill each other. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know what to say to that. And then you like, most of the time, what I talked nine times out of 10. When I talked to people who do run a business with their spouse, they're like, isn't it the most amazing thing? Like, and it's just, you know, every there are some people who it doesn't work for. But I was just talking to someone yesterday about this. Yeah, I mean, we work together because we work well together.
Michele Hansen
Right?
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah.
Michele Hansen
And we have a way of working through discussions in a way that's productive.
Colleen Schnettler 29:20
Well, in similar similar life goals, as well, right. I mean, I could see a situation where one co founder, like wanted an influx of cash, or you know, and then the other one was just if they weren't married, right, and then the other one had a different life situation. So he or she wanted something else. So yeah, I
Michele Hansen 29:35
think that makes sense. You know, I was listening to How I Built This with the founders of Atlassian. Last week, and they were they were talking about how something that really was such an interesting company because they are bootstrapped until they went public. But they didn't know that. Yeah. Isn't that cool? Wow, that's cool that they were both at similar life stages throughout their early journey and that really helped because, you know, when they were both, you know, Young and single and like living on, you know, pizza, like, the like the neither of them really needed a salary. And then when they were both having kids and like getting married, like they, you know, they were able to make adjustments and like they always understood each other. And I think that is helpful, but at the same time, there's a lot of couples that have conflict over money and one like that, that is a very, very common source of marital conflict. So I, you know, I'm not gonna, like, say that that's. And that's something people experience, right? And I can't speak to what other founder couples do. We just don't, we don't really fight with each other. So it works.
Colleen Schnettler 30:43
Well, I think that's, that's great. And I'm so happy you are open to talking about this.
Michele Hansen 30:48
This like the Michele's Life Episode.
Colleen Schnettler 30:49
I love it. Well, you always make me talk about my feelings. So I'm here. I want to know about Michele's feelings today.
Michele Hansen 30:59
I don't know if anyone's anything useful out of this, but at least you know me better now.
Colleen Schnettler 31:02
Sure they did. I just think the the idea. So I mean, honestly, Michele, before we started talking about, you know, started talking in depth about business stuff, I just assumed, like, just because the internet teaches you, the whole purpose of starting a company is to sell your company and go buy your beach house, and I still want my beach house. But, like, just being our friendship, and our conversations over the years have really made me rethink that. Because to your point, like, you love what you do, you can support your family with it. You're happy? Like why? Why rock the boat for even if it was $10 million? Like what do you need $10 million for I already had to guess.
Michele Hansen 31:43
Like, it's like, it's a cabin like, but like you don't like it's like I don't know, I don't want material like more material things. You know, like, we actually like talking about this the other day, and I realized that my winter coat is more expensive than my most expensive piece of jewelry. Like, I just, I don't feel the need to like, have to live an expensive life. Yeah, some people do. Like that's, you know, that's, that's okay. Right. Like there are, you know, there are luxury brands that need people to buy their stuff. And that's cool. And those serve purposes for people, but I don't know, I'm, I'm good. And I know that's not gonna make sense to some people. And I am. I've always been weird. I am okay with people, you know, my approach to things not making sense to other people. That's okay.
Colleen Schnettler 32:40
All right. Well, I think that's gonna wrap up this week's episode of the Software Social Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. You can reach us on Twitter at @softwaresocpod. We'd love to hear what you thought about Michele's life. Just kidding. We don't want to do that.
Michele Hansen 33:03
Talk to you guys next week.
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Colleen Schnettler 0:58
So Michele, this week, I had a prospective customer interview, which was a new experience and a lot of fun.
Michele Hansen
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah. And so what in order to prep for that interview, I had to search through all of my emails to find all of your customer interview scripts.
Michele Hansen
I know it wasn't too hard to search.
Colleen Schnettler
Well, the problem is, is you also email me as Michele the human so it was like I was like how do I feel? Sure, like human turtle shell the robot was like how where's my Deploying Empathy, Michele's Customer Research filter. But you know what I was thinking as I was sorting through my emails trying to isolate all of your scripts.
Michele Hansen 1:41
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler 1:43
I was thinking it'd be sure be nice if I had this in a book format.
Michele Hansen 1:49
You aren't the first person to say that, Colleen.
Colleen Schnettler 1:52
So tell me your thoughts on it.
Michele Hansen 1:54
So you know, it's kind of funny how the newsletter came about, because I think I had just gotten off of a mentoring call with a founder. And I realized as I was sort of sending them, they wanted to know about doing customer interviews. And I was typing up this email to them. And it's like, 10, paragraphs long. And it's like, this book is really good. But like, only these chapters are relevant for you. And like, this book doesn't go in enough detail. So like, listen to this podcast, but then also like, here's this worksheet, and it was like, so disorganized. And I also felt like I was writing the same email over and over and over again. And I was like, You know what, this is this, maybe this is a book. And then it was like, but everyone who has ever written a book has told me not to write a book, and that it's very lonely and difficult and, like, sounds like an awful experience. So maybe I shouldn't write a book like, and, and then I grant it, like, tweeted out, and everyone's like, Oh, my God, write a book. And I was like, okay, so I was like, You know what, I'll read it as a newsletter. If people like it, it becomes a live rough draft. If not, it's just a newsletter, and like, I can stop doing it. And like, no one's paying me for anything. And so as it's gone on, I have accepted the fact that maybe it is a book. But I've never written a book before. I've never marketed a book before. I've read a lot of them. I have not read books about writing or selling a book. Um, so it's been it's been kind of an interesting experience. It's a whole new world for me.
Colleen Schnettler 3:33
Yeah. Because you don't have any other informational products. Right?
Michele Hansen 3:39
Okay, like, I guess this podcast is technically an info product. I mean, but really, it's just forces us to, like keep up our weekly meetings. Like, I mean, like, I guess we have advertisers like technically but you know, it's like, really, that's why we're doing this, like, we love you, listeners. But truly, this is just for Colleen and I.
Colleen Schnettler 4:01
So it seems like so I obviously subscribe to your newsletter when you started it. You have more content that I can read? Like, it seems like there's a there's just so much in your brain that you want to get out about this.
Michele Hansen 4:14
I feel like I'm Marie Kondo in my head, like I'm just getting it all out. You know, like it's just like cleaning out my closet and it's like all of these things have been just like sitting there marinating for years now and kind of coming out sporadically as as necessary. And of course, he like sort of use them and build on them in my work. But yeah, it just feels like I just have all of this stuff. And it's like alright, here is like Michele's mental yardsale, my book about customer research.
Colleen Schnettler 4:45
So how do you feel about turning all of this information into a book like how's the process been and how are you feeling about it?
Michele Hansen 4:55
So if I tell myself that I'm just writing a newsletter and not a book, great. If I tell myself that I'm writing a book, and then I open the Google Doc and I see that blinking cursor, terrified.
Colleen Schnettler 5:10
Too much pressure.
Michele Hansen 5:11
I don't know, it just feels like a lot. Like and it's just something I haven't done before. I'm probably way under estimating how long it's going to take to go from like, newsletter rough draft to actual finished product, nevermind even having something that's just like a straight PDF, right of without any illustrations or any like, they're like, there's so many steps to this.
And I've been trying to read about it. Like Alex Hillman published a lot of great stuff after writing his book, Tiny MBA last year, that's been really helpful for me. But yeah, I mean, it feels overwhelming, and kind of like we were talking about last week, but I think having ADD sort of plays into this, because like, you know, partly, like I love having multiple projects at a time, like, I can't just have one thing I'm working on. And so that's partly where the newsletter comes from. But also then staring down a huge task that I have never done before is really, really intimidating to me.
Colleen Schnettler 6:13
Yeah, and I assume, like the mechanics of writing and selling a book is totally different than the mechanics of building and selling a SaaS or selling.
Michele Hansen 6:24
Yeah. Like, you know, like, with a SaaS, I feel like, you know, all people are googling for what they need, right? Like, they're like, how do you do this. And then as long as you have a landing page that says, Here's how you can do this, like, and then you do that, and then they pay you like, and it's very straightforward in terms of like delivering the value to someone.
I feel like with a book, it's a lot harder, like, I feel like I have to convince people that they need it. I mean, especially like, this is a hard thing that I'm trying to get, like doing interviews is, you know, to how I feel about it being you know, writing this book being this huge, monumental task that I don't know how to do that feels scary. A lot of people feel that way about interviews. So I can definitely, you know, empathize with my own reader about about that, that kind of feeling.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's very, very different than what I've done before. Just a lot of the marketing techniques are very different. And I admit that I, you know, when I start thinking about it, like, part of me is just like, I'm just gonna, like, print the Google Doc into a PDF and post it on my blog for free and go hide in the corner and call it a day. Like, I'm not actually like marketing. But then I'm like, No, you know, what, I prefer physical books. And I can do the Amazon print on demand thing. And if there was this book, I would want it in a physical book. And so that should at least like drive me through, like I keep reminding myself of what I want out of this.
Colleen Schnettler 8:01
Yeah. So are you is what do you say your motivating factor is? Because you've gotten so much demand for it? Or is it because this is something you want to do for yourself?
Michele Hansen 8:12
This is so it's mostly -- this is like 75%, this is something that I need myself, like, as I mentioned, like, having mentoring calls with people and needing to, like have one place to send them, that's a good book for basically for bootstrappers and really small teams on understanding their customers, I just, I don't feel like I have that book that is in enough detail and is at the right level and has the right combination of information. So it's like partly saving myself time in the long run by having that book. I think for a long time, I've had a feeling that I like, you know, I had a book in me somewhere. So there's like a little bit of that going on. But but mostly it's it's that kind of having one central place to send people for my own purposes. It's been it's been really interesting what people have said in response to the newsletter, too.
Colleen Schnettler 9:06
Yeah.
Michele Hansen 9:08
Yeah, so that's kind of that's helping me keep going, though I have I've started to appreciate how lonely writing is. You know, I feel like you hear writers talk about writing and they just they talk about how lonely it is. And I'm not sure if this is like validating each other's experiences or you know, kind of this like badge of honor that they went through this lonely process or like their hazing other would be writers to like scare them away. There's a mix of things going on.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah
Michele Hansen
But I feel like writing a newsletter makes it more social, right? And so like, whenever I encounter things that I'm like, Oh my God, this feels scary. like turning all this into a Google Doc like editing it all down and reformatting it like spending a month in a Google Doc on my own. And then I'm like, wait a minute, I don't have to do that. I decided I was doing this in public. I decided I was going to take what is apparently normally a lonely process and make it a social one. Like I can send You know, when I have edited something into what feels like a full chapter, I can send that out, right? Like people have subscribed knowing that this is a work in progress. So yeah, and they're not paying for it either. So they can just unsubscribe. Right? So.
Colleen Schnettler 10:14
Right. You said earlier that you felt that marketing a book was totally different than like marketing your product. What I don't what's the nuance there?
Michele Hansen 10:24
Yeah, I feel like books are, you know, sometimes I'm looking for a specific book, but but very often, you you there's some kind of convincing that has to happen.
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah
Michele Hansen
You I think something I'm thinking about, as I as I write this, and I've heard this from people who are experienced UX researchers or product managers is that they don't feel like they have a book to recommend people who are who are like, at this sort of stage. And so I think kind of, like, writing it to be something that's recommended to other people, but not necessarily used by the person you're selling it to was really interesting. But you know, you see a lot of people doing just different tactics, like, you know, having a, you know, marketing campaign that drips out, you know, a chapter a day and induces someone to buy with a discount. And like, all that, kind of like we we don't do any of that. Like, we don't do write any sales emails, we don't send sales emails ever. Like, we'll be like, Hey, we have a new feature like, cool. See you in six months. Like I think we have literally sent one marketing email in the past year. We do a lot of SEO instead. But so but we don't really ever do stuff with like, here's this bundle, where you get, you know, the the ebook and the audio book, and then you get access to these five interviews and like, I can see the value of that kind of stuff. But I have never done that before. And so that, yeah, it's just a whole new kind of work for me.
Colleen Schnettler 11:53
Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, honestly, even when I know I'm being dripped to I love a good drip campaign, like they remind you every week that you love them, I do and like me at all, like, I bought someone's book, and he's got a great drip campaign. Like, it's like, it's like on a random interval. It's like, every 13 days, he'll send an email. I'm like, Oh, I like this. I don't know. It doesn't bother me.
Michele Hansen 12:19
I get satisfaction out of unsubscribing to things. And I've actually I've had people like I had someone sign up for the newsletter yesterday, and saying how much they appreciated that I wasn't upselling them in the newsletter, like so these reinforcing my like, like, wait, make money? Yes. Make a PDF and hide in a corner approach.
Colleen Schnettler 12:41
No, I think it's gonna be afraid. I mean, this new.
Michele Hansen 12:46
I'm freaking out, man.
Colleen Schnettler 12:47
talked to you. Are you like, I talked to you every week, and I still get value out of what you send in the newsletter.
Michele Hansen 12:57
I appreciate that.
Colleen Schnettler 12:57
I mean, what makes you freak out about it just the way you said it wasn't the pressure. It's it's that kind of salesy deal.
Michele Hansen 13:04
Yeah, a little bit of that. I think it's just, it's just a very big project, like, and I think there's a -- to come back to that, which I think, you know, a question that I think you I guess, is a question you've had, and a lot of other people starting a company have, which is can I deliver something that is valuable enough that I feel ethically okay, taking people's money? Right, like, Can I like is what I'm doing something that is worth them paying the money? Not less a question of, can I make something they will pay for which, you know, is a question to figure out, but more of that sort of I don't know, that sort of existential level of is what I'm making, like, is that worth them paying for? And I think that's something that, you know, I don't struggle with that in SaaS, but for some reason, I struggle with that with an info product. Interesting.
Colleen Schnettler 14:01
Well, I for one, am looking forward to it. And when you think about it, so I was thinking about this after my interview on Wednesday. I know you don't know what you're going to price your book at. But if I get one sale, out of like, for one piece of useful information, like my minimum price is $35. So if your book is less than $35, which I assume it's going to be like, it's already valuable to me, right? I only have to get one person to make that worth my worth my money.
Michele Hansen 14:30
Yeah, I guess. So. I was thinking about pricing yesterday. And I think someone convinced me that it should be $29. So for both the ebook and the physical version, and I guess there would be an audiobook in there too. So yeah, I guess the price point is right.
Colleen Schnettler 14:49
Yes, I love this idea. I can't wait to continue to hear about this. And I would like to say, I feel like I told you to write a book six months ago. I feel like yeah, it took hold. So I'm super pumped. And I also really, really like physical books. Like, I want to hold it in my hand, I want to put post it notes on like the customer interview script pages, like.
Michele Hansen 15:13
Yeah, I got it. Like I actually I was sort of working on the intro this morning. And like, I have something in it that's like, go ahead and dog ear the pages, like write on it like, and then I even have a guide at the beginning that tells people how to skip around through the book based on what they're trying to do.
Colleen Schnettler
That's awesome.
Michele Hansen
Like I get I'm trying to design it in a way that's like, Okay, how do I get out of people's way? Right, because I think a lot of books on this are written like that, like, they're really good, but they have a lot on the philosophy of Jobs To Be Bone. And if you're just trying to increase your MRR, from like, 100 to 200 a month, like, you do not want to read an academic tome on activity theory. I do. But like, I just have, I have no illusions that that is not what you have come here for. And so maybe like, how can I make like, you know, sort of power packs for this book that's like, okay, go here, go here, go here. Maybe you'll come back to the book. Maybe you won't, but hopefully you at least get something out of it. Yeah, yeah, there's this really interesting blog post that someone sent me on, like giving a presentation and thinking of yourself as a user interface. And like, when you're doing a presentation, it's like you are a UI. And your job is like people aren't there to see you. There's they're there to like, get some outcome out of it. And so how do you structure how you present that as a UI, right? I'll have to link to it in the show notes. But it was super interesting. And it's definitely helping me structure this, which I think is helpful for something that feels overwhelming is like structuring my thinking.
Colleen Schnettler 16:50
Yeah, and I have to say, like, I have purchased and read, not quite as many as you but a lot of books that are aimed at like early stage founders. And the problem with all of these books is none of them are really focused on what I'm trying to do, which is a small single person, founder, they're all trying to either walk the line of addressing both. But like books, we've talked about, like Lean Startup, it's a great book, I don't have $10 million in venture funding. Like that doesn't mean we're in two different places, right? I just bought another book, which is about positioning, which is good. But again, the author is trying to address like a more like larger companies. And so the things that she suggests, like I don't have a data analysis team, I don't like you, I don't have my own UI/UX person, like, you know, so I love that you're so focused on like, here's -- I loved the scripts, I think that's probably like everyone's favorite. I bet if you took a poll, that would be everyone's favorite, because it's like, here is literally what you should say.
Michele Hansen 17:51
Like, that's, like, a bit of big motivation for me is that there are so many good books on this and and you know, to what you're saying, from the UX side, a lot of them are like, so, you know, the first thing to talk about is getting a budget for research consultants in this might be $100,000 to $200,000. If you're doing remote interviewing, you can be and it's like, dude, like, this is not the situation like we're in and I feel like that really turns people off. But yeah, give it like, an even the best books will be like, you know, here's what you say like, Don't interrupt them and ask follow up questions. And it's like, Okay, what what are those follow up questions like, what, like, you can't just pick like, bullet points on this for, right. Yeah. Anyway.
Colleen Schnettler 18:37
Well, cool. Well, I'm sure everyone, myself included, is will be anxiously awaiting, to see how this turns out for you.
Michele Hansen 18:49
You can all follow now it's my turn to be the like, the person who is trying to figure something new out and is sort of wandering around, lost and freaking out.
Colleen Schnettler 19:00
So there was something else I wanted to talk to you about today.
Michele Hansen
Okay.
Colleen Schnettler
You mentioned to me privately, that you have been getting some people interested in acquiring your company.
Michele Hansen 19:13
Yeah.
Colleen Schnettler 19:15
So are you gonna be a bazillionaire? and move to Hawaii? Like, what are you gonna sell?
Michele Hansen 19:21
No, we don't want to sell, which I think is so this is something
Colleen Schnettler 19:24
Yeah. Tell me more about this.
Michele Hansen 19:26
Yeah, I think that always surprises people that we, we don't want to sell and, you know, we don't have anyone externally who has any sort of, you know, incentives or say in this so so we don't have to. Yeah, we had to separate people, you know, and it wasn't they didn't write us an email that was says, Hello, here is $10 million sign, you know, it was like a meeting and chat and get to know each other and you know, everything and we're like, though, like I'm not gonna waste your time. Like we're not interested and hey, people are always really surprised that like, we don't have a number and that we don't want to be acquired, we just, like want to do what we do.
Colleen Schnettler 20:11
I would love to know more about that, I feel like, it seems like a lot of the people in the small business world, that's their goal is to become acquired. And I wasn't kidding. So they can have a lot of money, and just go do I don't know, whatever. So tell me more about you guys not wanting to be acquired ever.
Michele Hansen 20:30
I mean, we, we like what we do, you know, I consider it, you know, I feel like I have achieved the success I want to by being able to work from home, with my spouse on something I enjoy for customers that I enjoy working with on something where I feel like I learned new things all the time. And you know, who knows, I may look back, you know, at some point and be like, Oh, you sweet summer child, you should have taken that money when it was offered.
I feel like that's like, the peak of professional achievement, for me is like, getting to work from home with my husband like that. That, to me is great. And, you know, so I mean, there's a lot of people who want to get acquired, and you know, they want that kind of financial freedom. And those are all valid things to want. And we're all allowed to want different things, and we just know what we want, and that getting acquired. Like, it would not only not give us those things, it would actually set us backward, because then we would just have to find another business to start. And that's hard. Like that just starting a business is hard, right? Like, there's no two ways about it. And like, we already have one, so I don't know why I would put myself through that again.
Colleen Schnettler 21:51
I love that.
Michele Hansen 21:52
You know, and then I have people who are like you people don't believe me, when I say there isn't a number like I remember it was giving a talk to an MBA class a couple of years ago. And they just could not believe that there was no number and they're like, what if it was $100 million, like $500 million, $5 million, you know, whatever it was, and I was like, I just, I don't know, like, I don't need that. And you know, I've had people say like, well, then you could start your own charitable foundation like, I don't need I don't feel the need to do that. Like, I love when people do that. That's great. But like, I don't need more.
So a couple weeks ago, we're talking about the Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. And he has this story he tells at one point in the book, which so you know, there was one time when when Kurt Vonnegut and Joseph Heller, the writer, were at a party given by a billionaire on Shelter Island. And he said, Kurt Vonnegut said, "Joe, how does it make you feel to know that our host only yesterday may have made more money than your novel Catch 22 earned in its entire history?" And Joe Heller said, "I've got something he can never have." And Vonnegut says, "What on earth could that be Joe?" And Heller says, "The knowledge that I've got enough."
Colleen Schnettler 23:22
That's nice.
Michele Hansen 23:24
Yeah, I don't I don't need to be a billionaire. Like, I'm, I'm cool with that.
Colleen Schnettler 23:30
Okay, did you at least find out what they were going to offer you? Or does it not only get like.
Michele Hansen 23:34
I don't know, I don't want to waste everybody's time. And besides, like, some of them are in California. And if I want to do a call with California, that's at nine o'clock my time and I only do those for customers? Like Yeah, why? Like I could be reading a book.
Colleen Schnettler 23:48
This is fascinating to me.
Michele Hansen 23:51
It's the Michele's psychology episode.
Colleen Schnettler 23:53
Right? Like, I want me a beach house. That's what I want, like. So this is just like, fascinating to me. So basically, you guys are just like, no, like, we're happy. I mean, that's wonderful, too, though. We've talked to people who have sold their businesses. And it does seem to put you in kind of like, what do I do now state? Not that that's bad. But I can definitely see like, you love what you're doing. So why would you change it?
Michele Hansen 24:19
Yeah, and I mean, you know, our business isn't perfect, but like, basically, anything I might want to change is is solvable. And it's not solvable by other people's money. Right?
Colleen Schnettler
Right.
Michele Hansen
And so this is just how things are and you know, I can never know what's going to happen in the future. Like, we want this business to run as long as we can. This may not you know, we'll probably have multiple businesses in our lives, right. But where we are now we we don't have a reason to change. And sometimes people build companies to have them be acquired and like that's cool. That's, that's valid. And, but but they don't and I think, you know, I think so much of the conversation about software is dominated by it's still dominated by the, the, you know, the Silicon Valley kind of approach to things where, of course, you need to exit like, that's part of your business plan from the very beginning. But right, like, it's okay to do something different. Like we have a different set of incentives at play here.
Colleen Schnettler 25:28
Would you describe your business as a lifestyle business?
Michele Hansen 25:33
Oh man, I hate that phrase.
Colleen Schnettler 25:34
Really tell me? Because like, I've came across that I want to say in the lean startup, and like, I didn't really realize that was a thing.
Michele Hansen 25:42
I feel it is so condescending, because it's like, it does. Okay, because I don't want to spend like my whole world, like my life, you know, flying around the world for sales meetings and having my, you know, working 70 hours a week, like, it's apparently a lifestyle business, like, why should I apologize that I can, like, be here when, you know, my daughter has a sports game, or like, when she's home from school? Or? Like, I don't know, I think it's people projecting their own you know, the downsides of the approach they have taken onto other people, and they don't really think that's fair.
Their approach is valid, like, I like 20 years from now, I could want to start a business that requires funding, and I could be doing that whole, you know, flying around for sales meetings. And, you know, I don't think I would build a company that requires me working 70 hours a week, or certainly does not require anyone working for me to work 70 hours a week. Yeah, but no, I don't. Like, I don't want that. And I also don't consider that the next level either.
Like, I think that there's people kind of think of this like ladder of products, where, you know, it's like, you start out with affiliate marketing, and then you go to info products, and then you go to consulting, and then you go to like SaaS, and then and then like it, but you go to bootstrap SaaS first, and then you go to venture or whatever, and like, and there's kind of this, like, moral superiority increase at each level, right? I reject that. And I guess, as someone who is, you know, currently going from SaaS to infoproducts, like, you know, some people might say, I'm going backwards. I reject that paradigm. I think whatever you want to do as a business, provided you are doing so ethically and making something that is valuable for people and you know, genuine, then that's fine. But I think it just goes into other people's set of expectations and allowing ourselves to reject those and have our own world view of it instead.
Colleen Schnettler 27:44
Yeah, well, I love that. I love that you guys know what you want. And, you know, you're not like you said, You're not even gonna waste their time by having a meeting.
Michele Hansen 27:54
Yeah, I'm sure I'll run into these people at a conference or whatnot, like, there will be opportunities to meet them. And, but like, we're not, we're not in a rush. There's nobody who is telling us to sell and, you know, and and it really helps that we're both agreed on this, like, I've heard of a lot of co-founder conflict coming from one party wanting to sell and the other one not wanting to. Yeah, but like, thankfully, we are both 100% agreed on this.
Colleen Schnettler 28:26
That's great. Probably helps it you're married. I mean, in terms of like, co-founder conflict, do you think there's less of that? Because you're married
Michele Hansen 28:32
is such a funny question. Because, you know, I tell people who don't run businesses, with their spouses that we run a business together, and nine times out of 10, the reaction I get is, Oh, my God, we could never do that we would kill each other. And I'm like, Oh, I don't know what to say to that. And then you like, most of the time, what I talked nine times out of 10. When I talked to people who do run a business with their spouse, they're like, isn't it the most amazing thing? Like, and it's just, you know, every there are some people who it doesn't work for. But I was just talking to someone yesterday about this. Yeah, I mean, we work together because we work well together.
Michele Hansen
Right?
Colleen Schnettler
Yeah.
Michele Hansen
And we have a way of working through discussions in a way that's productive.
Colleen Schnettler 29:20
Well, in similar similar life goals, as well, right. I mean, I could see a situation where one co founder, like wanted an influx of cash, or you know, and then the other one was just if they weren't married, right, and then the other one had a different life situation. So he or she wanted something else. So yeah, I
Michele Hansen 29:35
think that makes sense. You know, I was listening to How I Built This with the founders of Atlassian. Last week, and they were they were talking about how something that really was such an interesting company because they are bootstrapped until they went public. But they didn't know that. Yeah. Isn't that cool? Wow, that's cool that they were both at similar life stages throughout their early journey and that really helped because, you know, when they were both, you know, Young and single and like living on, you know, pizza, like, the like the neither of them really needed a salary. And then when they were both having kids and like getting married, like they, you know, they were able to make adjustments and like they always understood each other. And I think that is helpful, but at the same time, there's a lot of couples that have conflict over money and one like that, that is a very, very common source of marital conflict. So I, you know, I'm not gonna, like, say that that's. And that's something people experience, right? And I can't speak to what other founder couples do. We just don't, we don't really fight with each other. So it works.
Colleen Schnettler 30:43
Well, I think that's, that's great. And I'm so happy you are open to talking about this.
Michele Hansen 30:48
This like the Michele's Life Episode.
Colleen Schnettler 30:49
I love it. Well, you always make me talk about my feelings. So I'm here. I want to know about Michele's feelings today.
Michele Hansen 30:59
I don't know if anyone's anything useful out of this, but at least you know me better now.
Colleen Schnettler 31:02
Sure they did. I just think the the idea. So I mean, honestly, Michele, before we started talking about, you know, started talking in depth about business stuff, I just assumed, like, just because the internet teaches you, the whole purpose of starting a company is to sell your company and go buy your beach house, and I still want my beach house. But, like, just being our friendship, and our conversations over the years have really made me rethink that. Because to your point, like, you love what you do, you can support your family with it. You're happy? Like why? Why rock the boat for even if it was $10 million? Like what do you need $10 million for I already had to guess.
Michele Hansen 31:43
Like, it's like, it's a cabin like, but like you don't like it's like I don't know, I don't want material like more material things. You know, like, we actually like talking about this the other day, and I realized that my winter coat is more expensive than my most expensive piece of jewelry. Like, I just, I don't feel the need to like, have to live an expensive life. Yeah, some people do. Like that's, you know, that's, that's okay. Right. Like there are, you know, there are luxury brands that need people to buy their stuff. And that's cool. And those serve purposes for people, but I don't know, I'm, I'm good. And I know that's not gonna make sense to some people. And I am. I've always been weird. I am okay with people, you know, my approach to things not making sense to other people. That's okay.
Colleen Schnettler 32:40
All right. Well, I think that's gonna wrap up this week's episode of the Software Social Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. You can reach us on Twitter at @softwaresocpod. We'd love to hear what you thought about Michele's life. Just kidding. We don't want to do that.
Michele Hansen 33:03
Talk to you guys next week.
