Michele: Hey, everyone.

Welcome back to software social.

I am so excited to have with
me today, Lucie Baratte.

She is co-founder and
art director of logology.

You have probably come across logology
on Twitter because of her husband

and co-founder Dagobert Dagobert
Renouf who makes, so many funny,

um, memes about, running a company.

So Lucy, thank you so
much for joining us today.

I'm so excited to have you.

Lucie: Thank you to have me.

I'm very happy to be there.

Thank you, Michelle.

And hi everyone.

Michele: So why don't you just first,
tell us a little bit more about logology.

You guys started it in, fall of 2018.

Is that right?

Lucie: Yes, it is.

Fall of 2018.

The first year was building the
product, and we really launched

the product in the spring of 2020.

And logology is a website where you can
find, a branding for, um, your startup

in a few clicks, in a few minutes.

And it will automatically, propose for
you, ideal or, well, we'll try to make

it the most perfect logo proposal for
your startup, according to your values.

So when you go on logology, and you
are looking for a logo or looking

for a branding, uh, identity,
you can just take the, quiz.

It's a creative quiz, I would say.

And the quiz will help you define your
personality, your startup personality.

And after that, you have the logo
proposals, which matches, the personality

of your startup and your activities
of course, and sector and activities.

Michele: So, so tell me,
where did this idea come from?

Like how did you guys,
get the idea of creating.

Lucie: Well, it was a long time ago.

We've first had the idea of creating
a logo, fun and beautiful logo

generator in the first place.

It was I think, seven years ago.

And then we forgot about this.

And then it happened again that I
was a graphic designer, specialize

in visual identity and logo design.

And I have to say, I was, wow.

I say quite famous in my hometown.

And so people were, calling me
saying, oh, I loved what you've done

for this company and this company.

And I would love to have a
brand identity designed by you.

And I would say, okay, so the
prices I have, warn you that the

price is around, uh, 2000 and 3000.

And often I knew saying it, that it was
too much for for this person, because

when you are still employed, you have a
full-time job and you just want to try

something, you don't have investment
for the moment, only your own savings.

Well, it looks too much money to,
to spend on visual identity because

visual identity is essential.

I think it is essential for, uh,
marketing your business and make

your product loved for, uh, others.

But in the same time, it's not like
essential in the beginning that you

would put thousands of, dollars in it.

So I thought I didn't have a solution
at this time when I was telling

people that I didn't have solution
for them because I could not do less.

I could not do a logo, I would be custom
logo or bespoke, and the only solutions

where, where I go on the internet and
maybe you will find things in terrible

logo generator, or maybe, well, at least
logo generator are awful solutions from

my designer perspective, because you don't
have the expertise, uh, about branding.

It's just random, uh, logo design
that you would find anywhere.

Or usually the icons or the logo is
not something that has been designed

with a concept, with a story it's
just like, icons from, non-project.

I like non-project, but it's
not like logo design, it's icon

design and icons are not logo.

Well, this is maybe a bit technical,
but it is to say that logo generators

are on from my perspective, not a great
solution, even if they are very cheap.

So it's very affordable,
which is a solution.

And the only solu, only other solutions
that you could find on the internet

at this point was, design contests.

And as a designer, I hated this
and I didn't want people to do that

because design contest is very, is
a very sad proposition, because,

uh, it is, well, just to say, it
is like you go on the website, you

ask for brand identity or a logo.

And I would say like, dozens of
designers are gonna work on your

project from your brief, but only
one will get paid in the end.

So I thought it was completely unfair
and unethical, but I didn't have, um,

solution for, people with no budget
or a very small budget and big and

great ideas because I'm fond of ideas.

I have to say that too.

I'm fond of ideas.

I love working with entrepreneurs because
they put so much passion in what they

believe in and they are full of, uh,
creativity, ingenuity, and I really

want to do something to help them.

So I begin to.

I don't know, I put this idea
aside and I didn't know what to

do, and when Dagobert be, and I
got married, we went on honeymoon.

And we went to United States
because I'm fond of music.

So Dagobert be, was kind enough to
follow me, uh, to Nashville and Memphis.

And it was gorgeous and
beautiful travel trip.

And when we were at the hotel, we
were, uh, looking at, um, a show,

a TV show, called shark tank.

And so you might know it of course,
and I don't know how it come,

but Dagobert was on the internet.

And, and he found something about
a founder who had the opportunity

to went to go on, shark tank
and giving back his experience.

And he was, uh, He had launched,
logo design online solution.

And we begin to think about this, like,
oh, so there is a market and something

is possible in logo design online.

And, so I, I remember that
this time, all the people that

I could not help in the past.

And I don't know when you are in the
United States, you, when it's a road

trip, you spend so much time in car
talking and, and reinvented the world

that we find this idea, like how, why
not create a new solution, something

different that you could find online.

It could be affordable.

It could be beautiful.

It could be meaningful.

It could have, meaning,
could tell stories.

It could help you.

And you know, when you start your
business, when you have an idea, what

could be for me, what could be better
that to have new shoes to go dancing, a

new suit to go to an employment meeting
or a professional meeting, like it

helps you so much for your confidence.

And so when I was in the, plane on the
way back, I was beginning to design

the website and how could we do this?

Because we really had to imagine
a solution to get meaningful

logo and it was not easy.

So I was working with the key words from
each logo and sectors, and that's how

it came and Dagobert, and I, we love,
uh, we are very fond of, uh, any icon.

I don't know if you ever heard about this.

It's an analysis of the
different human personalities.

And so we get inspired by
this to create the, quiz.

I was working a lot with design
thinking solutions in the past

to make workshop with my clients.

So I invented solutions like this
and we create this quiz together.

Dagobert really has a product
design vision, which was very most

precious for me, who has, I think,
a vision of always all the multiple

solution, multiple possibles,
um, which sometimes complicated.

So Dagobert was the one to say,
okay, let's make it simple.

Let's keep it efficient.

And I was the one who
always wanted to put magic.

I like the idea that it's a bit magical.

You discover your startup personality,
and then you have logos that

matches, you can fall in love with.

So that's the story of logology.

Michele: I love that story.

I think, you know, I, I also find
that we do some of our best business

thinking on road trips as well.

Like I think there's something
kind of magical about it.

Maybe you're in a different place, but
also there's no distractions, right?

There's no mailman coming to
the door, there's no phone.

You Know, I get car sick.

So like, I'm not on Twitter, on my phone.

Right.

You know, you're kind of just there
in one place with nothing else to do.

And it sounds like for you, you know,
you had been carrying around kind of

this, both the sympathy for people
you wanted to, help with their logos.

Because you're so passionate about
the importance of visual design.

But also then seeing that, the
solution, you weren't able to solve

them, you know, in your job and
then, on a sort of bespoke basis.

But then also seeing that the
other options out there for people,

either were not great from a design
perspective, had some shortcomings

or from an ethical perspective.

I admit like our, our geo code logo
comes from 99 designs, but we did it.

And I think, well, the first one actually
was just made by me and Microsoft paint.

So, that was, pretty horrific.

It says new code with a little
cowboy hat we drew over it.

It's like, it is so embarrassing.

Um, Oh, God.

Yeah, I'll have to put it on
Twitter so people can see it.

Um, yeah, all of our branding was
like cowboy theme, cuz we were like

Geocodio Cody at rhymes with rodeo.

And so all of our emails to
people said howdy, like, and it

was just, it was a whole thing.

And it was not very authentic.

Right.

Cuz like, you know, I'm from Boston
and Mathias is from Denmark and

like we're not people who say
like howdy and y'all all the time.

So like it was just,
it was kind of a mess.

But we don't know any neither of us as a
designer, we don't know anything about it.

And I think maybe a year or two
later we were like, you know what,

we need to have like a proper logo.

So we went to 99 designs because
we had previously worked for a

design and development agency.

We knew we couldn't afford, as
you said, a couple thousand to

design a logo when that was like
all our company was making at the.

Lucie: Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm not surprised.

Michele: Like, and I think actually
for the software, so social

logo, I just used some like.

I just typed in like
podcast logo generator.

Cause I don't think I even
really knew there was an option.

So I'm like, I'm actually curious,
like if I went to get a logo from

logology, like how much would that cost?

Lucie: It would cost $129, uh, for, yeah.

Michele: Oh, so that's super
competitive with 99 designs then.

Lucie: Yes, it is . Yes, it is.

It's the, the purpose.

Yes, it is, is to be competitive
with 99 designs and with other,

um, even local generators.

So you, you sum up it very well.

Uh, you find there is two main problems.

The first problem is it's not efficient.

Michele: It's uh, in terms of like
making the logo or like it, or

the logo, like the result you get.

Lucie: It doesn't resolve a problem.

When you take a logo generator
solution, you still have the

problem of design because designing
is, is about, resolving problems.

And it's about telling story.

And it's not easy.

Like you said, you thought
about the cowboy hats and stuff

and realizing afterwards that
it was not authentic for you.

So telling a story, it's not easy and
logo generators usually don't do that.

And on the other hand, you have 99 design.

But it is not ethical because,
only one designer got paid.

So it's I, well, it's not ethical,
so yeah, we are competitive.

We are, we want to be, uh, you can find
the first, uh, logo package is at, I hope

I'm not saying something wrong because
we just increased our prices last week.

That was a little bit, yeah.

I was a little bit anxious about it.

Like, oh really?

Are we gonna do that?

It was already working like that.

Michele: Right.

Let's not ruin it like right.

Lucie: Yeah.

but it's a good thing.

We are providing more,
images and more fives.

Uh, and so the first logo package is
that, 79, dollars, the second is at $129.

As I was told you, as I was seeing you.

Michele: What was it before.

Lucie: Uh, before it was
the first one was $49.

And the second was 89.

Michele: Okay.

So this is like, 30, $40 jump.

How Long did you think about that for
before you ended up raising the prices?

Lucie: Uh, we thought about it
a long time because many of our

customers told you, you should.

Yeah, you really should
increase the price.

Like I'm so happy you
should increase the price.

And it's like, really I'm sure.

And so Dagobert, uh, did a, huge, uh, work
about a asking for feedback, organizing

the feedback and reflecting on this.

And it took a few weeks until Dagobert
say, okay, honey, I have the solution.

I know the price, exact price at
which we can, uh, sell our product.

It's very difficult to find the good
price I think, but we also have, another

package, which is the established package.

It's when you, begin to have a, a
little bit more, I would not say

confidence, but, since you've got,
have a few customers and you wanna

go further on your brand identity?

I work with the clients to make,
a custom version of the logo.

So it means like for example,
you chose a parrot on our catalog

of, uh, design and of logos.

And, uh, you want this
parrot just for you.

And I can make version of
this parrot just for you.

It would not be exactly
the same as before.

It would be enhanced with your specific
needs, your specific activity, the

specificity of your, uh, personality,
because, uh, as you understood, it's like

a huge catalog with many, ways in it.

I've designed, well, I, I have to mention
it was long because, that's why the first

year I was working without launching,
because I designed, more than 700 logo.

Each logo on the catalog
was designed by me.

It's not like sourced
everywhere and stuff.

It's like only my designs.

So I really had to think of all
the different possibilities.

Uh, imagine someone who wants to make a
biotechnology startup, what could be, uh,

the personality of this kind of startup,
what could be the kind of activities?

How could I express the
idea of cloud laboratory for

example, and stuff like that.

So if you want, you can go further
with me, on a more , uh, logo.

Michele: So it's interesting, this like
lower version, that's basically like you

have two more sort of straight, you buy
it, you buy it online and that's kinda,

it options like lower tier versions.

And then you have this
more bespoke version.

But I think what's interesting about that
is that like, it sounds like they still

go through the quiz logo creation process.

So you're not actually starting from
scratch with them in the same way that

you would, if you go into a design agency
and you do this whole brand identity

exploration and, you're doing a lot
of hands on research and exploration

with them, like, they're coming to you
already saying, here's our company.

We already know we wanna parrot.

But like, you know, we don't know about
the rest of the colors and color palettes.

And like, we want it to look like,
the parrots wearing a hat or whatever.

And you're like, oh God, but okay.

We'll find something that's a fun parrot.

And they're like, yes,
a fun parrot, right.

But you're not starting from the point of
them being like, we want something fun.

And then,

Lucie: Exactly.

You, you, you complete.

Yes, exactly.

So you, you understand, you
understand perfectly the,

point, and it's exactly this.

We can keep it affordable because, uh,
audible, because even on the bespoke

part, we already have all the information.

We are not, as you said, starting
from scratch with nothing,

which would take long time.

Michele: Yeah.

So, so, this reminded me, as you
were saying about, you know, people

who are, you know, maybe more
established companies, they need

a bit more of a brand identity.

This reminds me of a question that
I often hear from, other founders,

which is, what is the difference
between UX UI and visual design?

Because I think at certain, point, you
know, people, especially if they're

doing everything themselves and,
and I guess used to use bootstrap,

but maybe they're using tailwind.

But like, everything is kind of off
the shelf with, templates and they

get to a certain point where like,
you know what, we want a little bit

more, we want better design, right.

And they're like, how
do we get better design?

And there's these
different types of design.

And so maybe as a, sort of big UX
person myself, like we should talk a

little bit about what design means.

Just to help people kind of get a sort
of lay of the land, um, a little bit.

We've talked a bit about visual design,
that's kind of, like things like

logo and the color palette, is there
anything else that you would put in that

visual design category, holding the
UI UX categories aside for a moment?

Like what makes visual design

Lucie: Um, I

Michele: compared to those other two?

What does it

Lucie: Yeah, it's a very
interesting question.

I would not exactly put UX and UE
design apart from visual design

and not UE design, at least.

I would rather include visual design
in brand design, which is the, the

biggest, uh, layer above all this, it's
about brand design and brand design,

uh, is often something that we don't
think about when we are founders.

And especially when we begin in the
beginning, we think of the product

or the service we want to provide.

And we don't think about
this brand aspect, which is

often related to marketing.

And when we think of brand, we are
thinking of, I don't know, maybe Nike

or Coca-Cola or McDonald like huge
stuff, which are so big with so many

budget on advertising and stuff, which
is not, uh, seems to be our world.

But what is important to instant is
that, from the moment you put your

product or your service, in the world,
people will have a perception of it

and the perception of your name and the
perception of who are you standing for.

And so brand design is about
creating a bond between your

business and its audience.

So you need to find who is your audience?

What is, or her, uh, personalities and
what do they like, what do they buy?

What do they stand for?

And you have to know who you want to be.

Who will you represent?

Who is your brand?

Like if the brand was a person.

And when you begin from this large
vision, you can now look at visual design

with logo and carros and fonts and, and
chy of fonts and, uh, even the naming.

And UX design as part of this,
expression, I think it's Jeff Bezos.

Uh, well, everybody know
who is Jeff Bezos nowadays?

he said something.

He said something, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's Seattle.

Hmm.

Uh, he said something interesting
about brand is said that brand is

what people, I don't have the exact
quote, because I'm not native English

spoken, but it said, uh, it said.

Um, brand is what people are saying
about you once you've leave the room.

Michele: Yeah.

He's he is some guy from Seattle, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's OK.

Hmm.

Lucie: What people are saying about
you, what people think about you

when you're not there, uh, how
do they figure out, who you are?

And it's like, it's like a club or
a group and a brand is like a, you

know, it is like a, a flag saying,
Hey, here is about, I don't know,

here is about, uh, reliability,
harness, honesty and expertise.

Join my club.

If you like, it.

It's exactly what we try to say.

But we are saying this with visual
components with, uh, physical experience.

It's so exciting and interesting,
I think, but it's very so, and, uh,

when you think of brand design, then
you begin to see your business as

not only something, a product or a
service, but as, an entity, something,

a person talking to other people.

And so you begin to imagine,
okay, how is this person dressed?

What kind of words vocabulary?

Because always like, the copywriting
is part of the brand design,

but what kind of gestures, uh,
where can I find this person?

Where does he, or she leave?

For example.

I don't know if it's clear, I'm
just trying to put in images, this

idea that UX and UE design, can be
completely put aside visual design,

which can be put aside of brand design.

Michele: guess.

Kind of a like, and I agree with that
point, like there's a bunch of sort

of overlapping ven diagrams here.

Right.

You know, I get, and I guess we'll,
we'll get into that in a second, but

like, in terms of, you know, to what
you're saying about brand identity,

it's basically what you're saying is
that every product, every service,

it has a brand identity, regardless
of whether that's an intentional one.

So for example, I might dress in, the
latest runway fashion going out somewhere,

and I'm intending to make a statement
about who I am and, and my personality.

I might also go somewhere in
jeans and a t-shirt, which

is normally how I go places.

Um, not intending to make any
statement about how I look or having

really put any thought into it.

And I'm just wearing what's, you
know, off the basic rack at H and M,

which is actually how I dress, and
I'm not intending to make a statement.

But I still have, I am still
projecting if I were a service,

like a brand identity, right?

Like that projects something just
as much as a, you know, a very

loud, gigantic yellow dress, right?

Like those both project, something,
they both project something different.

They both have different amounts
of thought that have gone into it,

but that still projects something
and, and says something about me.

And, says whether people, you know,
gives other people a signal of whether

I am maybe someone or something
that, shares some of their values.

Um, so even if it's not intentional or.

Lucie: Yes.

And it depends on the
place you are going to.

For example, if you are going to a
friend close friend party, you will

go there with your jeans and t-shirts,
and it would be normal and okay.

Uh, but if you go there with a,
a gala dress with glitter and eye

heels, and maybe they will find it
a bit overdressed, but if you are

going to the met gala or Tocan, you
will need, something glittering.

Or on the contrary, you can go to the
met gala in jeans and people would,

talk about you and saying, oh, have
you seen this actress or model or this,

woman coming to the me gala line jeans?

Like I remember.

A few years ago when, uh, cheryl
stone went to, I can't remember if

it was the Oscars or Grammy or can,
or one of these, great glamour event.

She went there dressed in a very simple
gap dress and the next day, every

newspaper we're, we're talking about this.

And this is again about brand
because as human beings, we are

very sensitive to signs and symbol,
and even just a color has something

to say to us, it's a meaning.

And just in a second, we are, giving
a, a sense, a meaning to it, even if

we don't think, consciously about it.

And we are in a world to nowadays
of information, like it was the

case before, but now with internet
and we are constantly, looking

at new informations, new images.

I can't remember the number of logos
we are seeing each day, but it's huge.

When you think of all the logos, you've
seen all the colors, all the ads.

So it's very difficult when you are
launching a new product or a new

business, uh, to say, hi, I'm here.

Look at me.

I have something to say to you.

I want some to share something
with you and it's difficult to find

it, your place and to be heard.

That's why you need branding, and I
have to say, I'm very happy to have,

created logology for this reason,
because I do think it's so important.

And I do think we can help
entrepreneurs with this solution,

like where otherwise you would not
find a solution or you would not.

Um, yeah, it's difficult
to send out from the crowd.

Michele: Yeah, I love
your passion for this.

That's really coming through.

So I guess if we like continue the
clothing analogy, just to make it

sort of very straightforward for
somebody who's like, I need better

design, but I, where do I go?

What, what do I do?

Like, so kind of the, and knowing
that there's a lot of overlap between

these things and, and broader ideas
at play, like sort of the, the

visual design is the colors and
the patterns of what I'm wearing.

The UI or the user interface is sort
of, I guess I would say that's like the

features of what I'm wearing, right?

Are there zippers, are there buttons?

Is it a jacket?

Is it pants?

Like, what is the functions of it?

What are the types of things that I
can do with this piece of clothing?

Right.

And then you have the UX, which,
and again, all of these things

very much overlap, but it's like,
can I actually use this for what

I I'm supposed to use it for?

Like, and do I want to do
this in the first place?

So for example, if my jeans
have a zipper, that's great.

But if the zipper is on the ankle
and not at the waist, then that might

be a problem because I can't close.

There's no way to close or open the pants.

Right.

Or if it's a jacket, but if it's, a hot
summer day, I don't want a puffy jacket.

That's the, that that has a
function, but it's the wrong

function for what the user needs.

And so, and all of these things kind
of, you know, tie together because it's

all sending a symbol to someone of,
is this a product that, can help you.

Right?

And, and we, we make that decision not
only based on the color and the look

of it, but also the functions of it.

And then whether we can figure out what
those functions do and if they're the

right functions in the first place.

Lucie: Yes, exactly.

And as I was listening to you,
I was thinking that you are

talking about empathizing, uh,
with your users with others.

And which is, I think the key of design.

What could be difficult with brand design
is not to forget that on one side, you

have to express who you are, what are
your values and, um, express emotion.

You have to bring emotion in the game.

Otherwise it's cold and nobody
get interested in your solution.

And on the other hand, you have to help.

And relieved a pain, give
solution, be functional.

And so you have to think what did
you want to say and how can you be in

the other people's, um, perspective?

You always have to take
the user perspective.

Once you've got this perspective,
it's easier to find solution for

your brand, and it will be easier
to find solution for your product

because, it will be tied together.

I don't know if it's
clear what I'm saying.

Michele: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like you have that in mind.

You know, I, often say like, you
know, we listen to our customers,

but like, customers are not gonna,
they're not gonna hand you a roadmap.

They're not gonna tell you what
the finished product looks like.

They're not gonna tell you what you are
capable of building, and that's fine.

That's not their job like their job,
you know, if they have one really is

for you to listen to them to understand
what those problems are, right?

Like your users before they were
users, had a problem of, they

wanted a logo for their companies.

They couldn't afford to
pay 2000 euros for one.

Right.

It, wasn't their job to tell you
the solution here is logology.

But if you went and just tried to, I want
to create logos for entrepreneurs, but

then you went out and did that without
knowing there were these gaps in the

market and why people wanted to do it.

And, and maybe there's this people, you
know, down at a lower end who just wanna

pay starting out $50, but then maybe
there's some people who want something

a little bit more of bespoke, like
you would not have had that context,

that understanding of what was to
the customer, without, that context.

Like there's this framework that I
often refer back to from Marty Kagan,

who's the head of Silicon valley product
group, who's a big product leader.

You know, talking about the
key elements, of a product.

And let's see if I can remember them
off the top of the head, but this is,

is valuable, viable, feasible, and
usable, which basically means that,

you know, only the, customer can
determine whether something, a product

or service makes is valuable to them,
whether it's something that they want

to pay for that it solves a problem.

And they also can only determine
whether it is usable, right?

As I said, you know, if I can't
figure out how to close the jacket,

it doesn't matter how pretty it is.

Like, it doesn't matter how cheap it is.

I can't use it.

If I need one, like, it doesn't matter.

But then, only the company or
the entrepreneur can figure out

what is feasible for them from a
sort of technical and resourced

perspective for them to create.

Right.

Like this would not have been feasible
if neither of you was a logo designer.

Even if it's valuable and usable by
people, you could have drawn out this

whole website, but if you, didn't have
the ability to spend that year making the

logos, maybe you can hire someone for it.

But like that becomes a
much bigger challenge.

It's less feasible.

And then also what is viable in
the market, which is something that

you guys are, still figuring out.

But so it's, the customer determines
whether it's valuable and whether it's

usable and the company determines whether
it's feasible and it's viable and you

can't have a successful product without,
the combination of, all of those things.

I

Lucie: Exactly.

I think it's the combination
of vision and empathy.

Like you have to always deal with this.

It reminds me that often when we
speak of the visual design, we will go

with our own tastes like for example.

And it's very common or, current example,
uh, among designers, the customer or the

clients come and say, oh, I love purple.

I want a purple logo.

And once you begin to dig in the values
or the kind of company it is, you say,

mm, I don't think purple is good for you
because purple is about, well, it can

be a lot of thing, but purple is about
transformation and magic and originality.

And, um, so maybe for your bank
solution, it could not be the

best solution or maybe it is be.

Michele: Think our bank
is purple, actually.

Lucie: It can

be purple.

I'm not saying I'm not saying that

Michele: but they're also
transforming banking, right?

Like they are, they are
transforming banking.

It's all online.

I don't have to go into
a branch to send a wire.

Right.

It's a very fresh color for a bank.

It's not an orange or a Navy
blue, like which you would.

Lucie: Like the traditional bank
design, uh, maybe in the future, we'll

see bank logos or bank branding with,
Barbie pink and it will be, I will

think you see a very fun bank maybe.

But it is to say that you, when
you think of your brand design, when

you think of, yeah, your product
design and stuff like that, you

have to come from both perspectives.

Not only the perspective of your
clients, because as you said, clients

will not give you the solution.

You can't ask everyone in the
street saying, what colors do

you do you like for a bank?

And maybe everyone will say blue,
and it's not the color that you need.

And you cannot come.

Also neither from a place saying,
I want purple because it's the

favorite color of my daughter.

And maybe it's not relevant for you.

So it's the same.

When you, when you build a
service and a product, you need

to combine vision and empathy.

Michele: Yeah, I love that.

So this has been really fun chatting
with you about logos and design.

And, I feel like I've definitely
learned a few things about,

thinking about brand design here.

It's Michelle here, so I ended up
having such a good conversation with

Lucy Baratte that we decided to extend
the episode and, combine it into two

parts instead of, just one episode.

And so you can listen to the second
part, of that episode next week.

Before we go, I wanna give a huge thanks
to all of our listeners who've become

software socialite and support our show.

You can become a supporter for $10
a month or a hundred dollars a year

at software social.dev/supporters.

Chris from chipper CI, the
daringly handsome Kevin Griffin,

Mike from gently used domains,

Dave from recut, max of online or
not, Stefan from talk to Stefan,

Brendan Andre of bright bits,

Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from the tiny
MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, Jane and Benedikt

from userlist, which by the way,
just celebrated their fourth birthday.

So happy birthday's userlist.

Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of
signwell, Corey Haynes of swipewell,

Mike Wade of crowd sentry,

Nate Ritter of room steals, Anna
Maste of subscribed sense,

Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin
Jackson from mega maker, Jack Ellis

and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics,
Matthew from appointment reminder,

Andrew Culver at bullet train, John
Kostor, Alex of Corso systems, Richard

from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly
pragmatic founder, Ben from consentkit,

John from credo and editor ninja, cam
Sloan, Michael Koper of nusii proposals,

Chris from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet,
Greg park from trait lab, Adam from

rails autoscale, Lena and Alex from
recapsy, Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com,

Avid Kahl, James Sowers of
castaway.fm, Nathan of develop your

UX, Jessica Malnick, Damian Moore

Audio audit podcast checker,
and Eldon from nodlestudios.

Thanks everyone.