Unknown Speaker 0:00
Hey Colleen, hey, Michele. It's

Unknown Speaker 0:04
been a while since we've been in front of mics together. Hasn't it quite a while?

Unknown Speaker 0:12
Sorry, I'm just I'm having trouble holding in all of my giggles from our pre show chat about trying to select our mics and remember what we use for recording? Yeah, I don't remember how to podcast. It's not like we did this every week for two and a half years.

Unknown Speaker 0:33
Yep, which, like,

Unknown Speaker 0:36
that's kind of wild when I think about it.

Unknown Speaker 0:40
I still don't know how we found time for that at all. Yeah, it was kind of wild. It was the time. So I feel like we need to catch people up a little bit on the past couple of years. How long? Okay, so question for you, how long has it been since we recorded I don't even know what. So I know about the last time we recorded was December 2022

Unknown Speaker 1:08
like, had I started Hammerstone just yeah, no. So I think you had just joined tiny seed at the tiny seed, remember you had your like, we were fall 20 years in the same summer of, like, taking a job, and then taking another job, like, five weeks later. And then I think you took another job, like, there was, like, a lot of jobs going on in a summer, a lot of jobs. And then eventually, like, oh my god, I'm gonna work on this company with my friends. It's gonna be amazing.

Unknown Speaker 1:35
I'm gonna do that. And then, yeah, then you, you You joined tiny seat a few months because I saw you. And what, October, November of 22 right? Like, I remember being at a conference with you and recording while we were there, and you would just go into a tiny seed, and we had just gotten a tiny seat. Yeah. Okay, so it's been a minute. That's when we stopped doing the podcast in December of 22 Really, wow. And this is 2025, oh my god, wow. That's amazing. I yeah, I guess it was almost five years ago. We, good lord, like, Oh my gosh. That's hard to Yeah, that's hard to believe. Think about this time five years ago, we both still lived one neighborhood apart from each other. Oh, sad face. Sad face. So I feel like I need to or we need to reassure people that the podcast didn't stop because we weren't friends. I have had a few people very, very sweetly at conferences come up to be like, oh, like, why did the podcast stop? Like, are you guys not friends anymore? It's like, that's so funny. No one has asked me that. Oh, really. That's so funny that people are like, does Colleen hate you because you guys are assuming that like, you've broken up with me rather than like the other they're like, does Connie not want to be your friend anymore? Versus, for you, they're like, yeah, she's moved on to better things, like, nobody cares. Um,

Unknown Speaker 3:10
but no, I think, I think that. I think there's a little bit of context necessary, which is, like, you know, around the time that you joined Hammerstone. Now, hello. Query, did it go through another name in the process? What was refined was the product, yeah, like, there were a lot of names. There was there started to be a lot of stuff going on. For you, even that fall, that was stuff that you, like, couldn't really talk about publicly.

Unknown Speaker 3:36
And also for me, there started to be a lot of stuff going on that I couldn't talk about publicly, and, and you had, like, an existential crisis, right? Did I it's, I mean, it's been a couple of years. I don't which existential crisis was this?

Unknown Speaker 3:54
Can you narrow it down, please?

Unknown Speaker 3:58
Okay,

Unknown Speaker 4:00
we're just gonna leave that.

Unknown Speaker 4:02
And so anyway, so like, we both had a lot of stuff going on that we couldn't talk about, but that we wanted to talk about with each other.

Unknown Speaker 4:10
But like, we have a nine hour time difference. And like, finding the time to talk is tough, and we were finding time for a weekly podcast, and that was basically the time we had to talk to each other. But we couldn't talk about the things we wanted to talk to each other about, because we were like, basically performing a public version of our friendship that was like, actually, like a fraction of our relationship. And you know, at least how I think about it, like the podcast almost kind of became like a source of friction

Unknown Speaker 4:49
in our friendship, because it like, just like the time commitment and then having to be so constrained in what we're able to say. And I mean, just thinking over the.

Unknown Speaker 5:00
Last, like two years for me, like there's no way I would have been able to have a public podcast with

Unknown Speaker 5:07
with everything that's been going on for me, which is, thankfully, all a lot better now,

Unknown Speaker 5:12
existential crisis, I said, so. I said, I'm just kidding. Existential I mean, I did totally burn out last summer, but I wouldn't classify it as a philosophical crisis, per se, much more on the ground, I don't know, is that how you see it or,

Unknown Speaker 5:29
I mean, I really, is. I really don't think it's that deep, like my 13 year old. You don't get the questions about whether we're still friends, because you're like, I mean, it just stopped. It's fine. We just didn't want to do it anymore, so we just stopped. But I appreciate your your deep thought and emotion you've put into this, my God, you did break up with me, and I'm now finding out on something that's gonna be released. Oh, this is more to find.

Unknown Speaker 5:53
Well, I guess you were also podcasting with other people.

Unknown Speaker 6:01
So many podcasts in my life at that time of my life,

Unknown Speaker 6:05
yeah, which, by the way, I was actually I was so I was on vacation last week, and so I was binge catching up on your episodes of tiny seed tales today.

Unknown Speaker 6:15
Yeah, let me tell you what's weird, because we recorded those episodes like two years ago. So it's so weird for me to go back and listen to those episodes now being like 18 months removed from actually recording them, not even remembering what I said, and having my whole life condensed into like 530 minute tiny sea tale episodes. It's a vibe. Wait, hold on. So the Erin breakup that's in the last the actual breakup, not when you broke up with him, when he broke up with you. Was that okay? So for some reason in my head, that was September of 2024 but was that actually September of 23 he was 23 It was September 2023 Wait, is this 2025

Unknown Speaker 6:58
and I actually we saw each other at the beginning of September 2023 that when we went to Napa, yeah, we walked around an elementary school track talking about business, yeah, an hour. I remember that I know because I missed you so much because we weren't podcasting, I feel like I need to go back and amend my statement about the podcast, since you've clearly put a lot of thought into it, and I've clearly put no thought into See, now you're just, like, trying to make up for it. And I'm like, does she really? Does she really mean it? No, I know you do back battle back, um, but then I remember, like, yeah. And then it was like a couple, like, a week or two later that that happened. Oh, yeah, yeah. But think about so that podcast episode just came out that happened, like, 14 months ago. That's why it's so weird. It's like we're all past it now, but it's super weird to go back and relive those super emotional moments in my business life. God, yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 7:50
if you're not listening to tiny details with me, Colleen, please check it out. It's on startups with the rest of us every Thursday. It's good listening. If you've enjoyed it's good listening. Sorry if you've missed hearing Colleen voice and enjoy listening to her.

Unknown Speaker 8:06
See now I'm like talking about you like you're not. This is so weird. Podcasting is so we might have I am away. Yeah, we're just gonna have to pause it. I would say that.

Unknown Speaker 8:19
No, go ahead. The TLDR, here is, we had a podcast. We are friends. We stopped podcasting because we were busy, but we wanted to update people who still listen. So we're back for today. Yeah, we're back ish, in some form. I think doing a weekly podcast again, nine hour time difference that is fault. Is that Michele,

Unknown Speaker 8:44
whose fault is it? Colleen, because when I left to a different country, excuse me, you also moved to another coast. Okay, this would be a six hour time difference if somebody hadn't gotten reassigned. Okay, so true. We're both at fault here.

Unknown Speaker 9:04
So, right? That's that's not happening. We can't do a weekly thing however. It would be really good. I think if we could talk once in a while, like, I don't know how often that is, but as our schedules allow, I

Unknown Speaker 9:20
think that

Unknown Speaker 9:22
would be good. And there's also like, I think the fun thing about having a podcast is you can just, like, ask people to talk to you and then they will, which might be a really funny thing coming from me, because my whole thing is, like, just ask people to talk to you and they will. And you don't even need a podcast,

Unknown Speaker 9:38
and you don't. But there is something interesting about having

Unknown Speaker 9:43
a podcast. And there are some people that I think,

Unknown Speaker 9:46
could, you know, I've had interesting conversations with, and I'm like, Oh, this could totally be a podcast episode. And I bet you have people you're talking to as well. I mean, especially, I mean, you're doing some interesting stuff, right?

Unknown Speaker 10:00
Now with your SaaS marketing gym?

Unknown Speaker 10:04
Yes. So since we have talked, a lot has happened, but the biggest update is I started a new business with a friend, Leanna patch, who is a brilliant copywriter, and it's called SaaS marketing gym. And what it is is it's kind of this combo coaching community. We use the term gym because it's like the gym, like you basically buy a membership, and we have daily office hours where we help coach you to do your marketing things. And I started it. We started it, but I had the idea because, as a technical founder myself, and knowing so many technical founders, marketing is the number one thing people struggle with, and so it's daily accountability, and you get, like, one on one coaching, and it's a whole thing. But it's really fun for me, because I'm working with founders who are, you know, my people, so doing a lot of marketing and teaching technical people how to do marketing. And sometimes it's just literally making the people do the stuff this episode has been sponsored by SaaS marketing to SaaS marketing and Squarespace. Do

Unknown Speaker 11:06
they still sponsor things? Well,

Unknown Speaker 11:09
they're not sponsoring this. No, they're not. No no money from them. Um, no, that's awesome. And, I mean, I think it's such a good fit for you because you're like,

Unknown Speaker 11:19
you're like,

Unknown Speaker 11:21
you're like, the most emotionally healthy person I've ever met, and I feel like you're such a great coach, and actually, will you be my coach on something for free?

Unknown Speaker 11:32
Let's talk about it. So I have kind of committed myself to doing an updated version of my book this year,

Unknown Speaker 11:41
because blast from the past. My book came out in 2021

Unknown Speaker 11:47
which was four years ago. No, are you serious? Yes, I cannot believe that. I swear to God, I cannot believe that if we went back and listened to our first episodes, we would be like, Oh my god. Babies, we're like, we're in our 30s, but babies, oh my gosh. Seriously, so long ago. Like, I feel like that was a different lifetime entirely, but I think

Unknown Speaker 12:12
I need to update it. I need to like, you know, I wrote it before llms came out, and so there's interesting stuff people can do there. And there's just, like, you know, some of the products I mentioned in the book, like, you know, aren't active anymore. And like, just, like, just like some there's also, like, some copy updates I want to make, and I

Unknown Speaker 12:33
want to get that out this year. Okay? And actually, can I tell you something kind of wild? So always. I mean, so you know how, info, products, books, courses, etc, right? Like they, I feel like people always say that you need to, like, market them constantly in order for them to sell.

Unknown Speaker 12:54
Like, is it? Is it, or, I don't know. I mean, you're the one running a marketing gym, like, Is this, like, something you have, yeah. I mean, I think that's a fair that's ideal, sure. Yeah, so last year again, with lots of things going on that I can't really talk about, I only did so I only did one talk for it, and or even one talk period in 2023

Unknown Speaker 13:16
and then one talk period in 2024

Unknown Speaker 13:20
no other marketing for it whatsoever, and somehow it made more money last year than it did in 2023

Unknown Speaker 13:28
and I'm nice, not really sure how that's possible,

Unknown Speaker 13:33
but it's really wild to me that, like the book, kind of has legs on its own. And if the pace continues, it might actually reach 5000 copies sold this year, which, again, is like totally wild to me. Like I remember when I was writing the book, you know, we were, like, talking about goals and stuff. And I forget what the stat was, but it was something like, the average book

Unknown Speaker 13:58
only sells something like 400 copies lifetime. Like the average like publisher published book sells like 400 copies lifetime. And I think a self published book sells fewer So, yeah, I'm still kind of

Unknown Speaker 14:15
confused. Is the wrong word, but it's also not the wrong word.

Unknown Speaker 14:20
Well, think about the ecosystem for your book. There's only two books that are good in that ecosystem, deploy empathy and the Mom Test. I mean, limit the ecosystem.

Unknown Speaker 14:30
Yeah. So the Mom Test is hasn't been updated in a bazillion years, right? I mean, it's a great book. I think it's good, but I think you have a real opportunity to position yourself. I mean, you've already started positioning yourself as the expert in customer interviews, but I think you can do a lot more. And I think re releasing the book is a great idea. What kind of commitment is that gonna take time? Commitment of yours, like, how much work is it gonna be? Yeah, that's the thing is. I mean, I committed myself to this in like.

Unknown Speaker 15:00
In November. And so I already,

Unknown Speaker 15:05
like made an outline of a lot of the things I want to update. I already started talking to people a little bit doing some research on those new sections, like I mentioned one on AI. I think I want to do maybe a little bit on using it in sales settings, which is something I really, really didn't want to include in the book, but people are using it in sales settings, and I think I was just a bit too dogmatic on that, and it's better to support

Unknown Speaker 15:32
what people are going to do anyway, rather than just telling them not to use it. That's just not good UX, period. So I made this whole outline.

Unknown Speaker 15:42
I actually, like, it was actually kind of wild, like I realized in November when i i opened it up to try to, like, reference something, to make sure I had a story right. And I realized that I haven't opened it up beyond the first page, like, this is gonna sound terrible, like to sign a copy of it for something like, it sounds awful in like, over two years, like, at that point, like I hadn't read it and like, and I think also part of me was, like, afraid that if I opened it, I would find all of these, like typos and like bad writing, and just kind of think it was terrible and be embarrassed by it, and then be like, embarrassed when people told me they were reading it, and like, I just, like, built up this whole complex about it in my head, and which, when I

Unknown Speaker 16:32
have, like, mentioned anything like that to people, they're like, your book is amazing. What are you talking about? Why would you be embarrassed everyone? I'm like, Look, I'm not saying it makes sense, but I'm saying that's what's going on in my head. And and I open it up, and I was like, okay, yeah, all right, that, that sentence is clunky, that would that wasn't very graceful. No, okay, all right, that bit isn't terrible, you know, like, maybe that's not so bad. And so, so that was November. I made an outline, I started doing some research. But, like, man, life is busy. Like, I like, like, it's been on my list for a month now to just print out the book. Like, take the PDF, print it, and then start going through it with a red pen for like, typos and stuff. I know I want to change and stuff, but not even getting to there, just the printing part. I have not done the printing part today. I was actually, I'm gonna print it today. I'm gonna even turn on the printer and, like, put in paper, because it's gonna be a lot of paper, and I haven't printed it because, like, Okay, I'm not your therapist, but the fact that you can't bring yourself to print out the book, I feel like there's something, there's something going on there. Just so busy. I'm so, I mean, you're not, really, you're not, oh, you're now, wow, okay, you are not too busy to print out a book. If you know, I mean, I just have a lot of things on my to do list, and there was other things going on and blah, blah, blah, why do you not want to print out your book? I do want to print it out? No, I do want to. I do want to work on it. Do I want you as my coach? I don't

Unknown Speaker 18:08
know, like you were so, okay,

Unknown Speaker 18:11
just kidding, if you join Okay, no, this is actually why, just because Michele and I know each other, see, honestly, like, this is why I need us to

Unknown Speaker 18:21
do this at least, like, once a month, or every six weeks or something, because I need you to, like, stand over my shoulder like a drill sergeant and be like, Michele, why haven't you printed it out yet? Like

Unknown Speaker 18:34
you've started Fine, I'll do it tomorrow. And you're like, I'll do it. You're gonna go do it right now. I will wait.

Unknown Speaker 18:42
Okay, so you need to print out the book.

Unknown Speaker 18:45
And looks, you're gonna read rules, right, right, print the book. But basically, the idea is, you're gonna go through the book, you're gonna redline it, and then, like, the idea is to read, you're gonna reread it, then redline it as you go through it and see, like, kind of what you want to change. Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, in some of its small things, some of its big things, some of its, like, kind of rethinking some of the analogies, like, it's so it's so inconsequential. But like,

Unknown Speaker 19:11
you know, I have this one scene where I'm, like, talking about talking to a grocery store cashier, and when I wrote the book, like, I had moved to Denmark

Unknown Speaker 19:21
God six months beforehand, or something like that. Yeah, I didn't realize how talking to grocery store cashiers is, like, a very North American thing. Or maybe they do it in South America too. They certainly do not do that in Northern Europe. And I was like, oh, people just don't do it because I don't speak Danish. No, you don't interact with strangers here. And so I'm like, do I need to kind of, like, really clarify that that's normal and actually kind of expected and polite in the US to, you know, have at least a chat about the weather or whatever. Like, it's just, it's just, like, everything from, from, from, from, bigger things about, how do I use AI with customer interviews?

Unknown Speaker 20:00
Like, small kind of vignettes like that. And, yeah, I think I just need to, kind of print it out, get a red pen, cozy up in one of my favorite chairs, ideally, have an empty, quiet house, which is very rare. So I can't wait for that. And just like, and I need, I also need, like, weekend time to do it, because I think my my work days, despite what you might believe, are honestly just too busy for me to, like, have the like, even if I technically, like, have, okay, I have, like, an hour I could do that, and I don't have the mental space to do it because, like, that hour that I have that's free, like, you know, I spend that eating lunch or reading or, like, hanging out with my trees, and I can't be editing at that point. You know, it's funny, because I have another friend I do calls with who is writing a book, and

Unknown Speaker 20:57
the advice I gave or we were discussing, but two things you could look at to do here. One, you just block out an hour or two every morning before everyone else gets up. And I think the whole being in Denmark thing works in your favor, right? Like, can you not block out like, eight to 10am or option two, to you do it if you're someone who needs, like, deep chunks of work, which some of us are, go to a hotel and do 48 hours at a hotel, and you could get half the freaking book done in that amount of time.

Unknown Speaker 21:26
I probably could. That sounds amazing, but I do have a limited amount of hey, I'm gonna peace out and not be here for two days amount of time in my life, and because I live in Denmark, and none of my good friends or family live here, I use that time on seeing people,

Unknown Speaker 21:49
yeah, and that's my like, you know, if I'm lucky, that's like, every Well, either way, you'll figure out how to carve out that's on you. So that's something you're gonna be working Yeah, I need to, I like, I mean, that's great. I think I just, I need to.

Unknown Speaker 22:03
I think, I think Saturday or Sunday mornings, when no one else is awake, is probably the time to do that, because I do have those nice chunks in the morning, but that's my like, you know, eight to one is my like, focus work time, and then I take a break for lunch, and then by two, three o'clock I'm back at my desk for meetings for the afternoon, because the US is awake. So, yeah, so you can figure that out, right? But I would suggest, like, so we're gonna do that. That's very exciting. I'm excited for you. This will be a lot of fun.

Unknown Speaker 22:35
Oh, I saw that you sent out a newsletter again. Yay. I did. Yay. Go. Me,

Unknown Speaker 22:42
yeah, I did that. I think I sent out one in like November, and then I sent out another one in

Unknown Speaker 22:51
January, talking about, AI, I just pulled up the numbers, because everybody loves numbers. So the last as of the last time I pulled the sales numbers, which was probably in January, because February has been kind of busy for me and vacation blah, blah, blah,

Unknown Speaker 23:13

Unknown Speaker 23:16
copies have sold. That's amazing. Congratulations. Where are most coming through, like, what platform,

Unknown Speaker 23:25
Amazon, definitely so, like, if we look at 2024,

Unknown Speaker 23:32
oh, that's an unlucky number, but 666

Unknown Speaker 23:35
copies were sold through Amazon.

Unknown Speaker 23:40
But then, so actually, this, this is kind of heartwarming. 349

Unknown Speaker 23:46
copies were the audiobook, which I remember in the beginning, like in 2021 and 2022 like the audiobook barely sold anything, and I

Unknown Speaker 23:58
felt like it was a little bit of a waste of time because I spent so many hours recording it, and I think I got one or two positive reviews. They're like, she's not a professional voice actor. It sounds terrible. And then I was like, Well, that was a waste of time.

Unknown Speaker 24:14
But now it's actually like, you know, pretty decent. And then there's, like, a variety of other smaller platforms that sell a little bit, but yeah, I mean Amazon,

Unknown Speaker 24:25
far and away,

Unknown Speaker 24:27
that's great. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I also need to pledge, again to what I said about the audiobook. I need to pledge to not read reviews like I know, like some authors, they have, like other people, read the reviews for them, and then they tell them if they can read those reviews. But otherwise, it's like, I want to act like they don't exist, which I feel so terrible saying, because they're so incredibly important, and

Unknown Speaker 24:52
I'm really grateful when people write them, because those are the thing that people check when they're looking at a book, or someone recommends a book they do like.

Unknown Speaker 25:00
They're so incredibly important. But if I see a bad review that's justified, I will, like, totally internalize it and it but it helps me immensely to know that even, like very legit authors like David Sedaris, like they don't read their reviews, and they all recommend not reading your reviews, so please write reviews, but so don't tell me about them.

Unknown Speaker 25:25
Do it in secret. But

Unknown Speaker 25:28
so let's talk a little more about this book. So you are going to revamp the book, and what's your what's your release state, your estimated release date for when you want to get some point in 2025,

Unknown Speaker 25:41
oh, okay, so whenever, some point this year, yeah, some point this year I probably like, more like the fall at this point, okay, because there's, there's stuff I have to do, and then it's a lot of work too. You're basically, there's other people involved too. Oh no, no no. Oh, yeah, that's not

Unknown Speaker 26:05
read the whole just, it's just gonna get, like, a new coat of paint. Like, you know, we're not remodeling the book. Like, just some touch ups, some new paint here and there. Like, maybe a new end table or a new lamp, but, like, okay, nothing major. So we've talked about this before, what apparently was five years ago now, but so weird.

Unknown Speaker 26:30
What about positioning yourself? And at the time, you said you did not want to position yourself as the customer interview expert. Do you remember that? Because at the time I had said, why are we not doing more with this book. Why are you not on LinkedIn? Like, more actively about this book? Like, why don't I see video snippets of you reading this book all over my feed? And you were like, Nah, I want to do teaching me, like, reading the book to people, like, a bedtime story. It's a thing. Like, like, is it like, is it videos as a bedtime story? I mean, you make it funny, right? Like, you pull out important, like, segments, and you have a thought leadership post around, like, oh, so if it's us, I mean, I'm just telling you, like, I'm just asking, like, what are we doing? So here's the thing. Is, I could, like, and I to be like, want to

Unknown Speaker 27:17
I, I could, right? There are two reasons I wrote the book. Three reasons I wrote the book. Okay, the first, most obvious reason is that people were asking me questions about customer interviews, and I didn't have one good place to send them, and so I started writing the newsletter so that instead of writing these long, rambly, jumbled emails with things, I could just send them to one place that could then send them onwards to whatever they needed. The second reason was that, in

Unknown Speaker 27:50
in so many ways, I felt like, I mean, I really poured my heart and soul into that book, and I feel like it was a bit of my life's work to do that, like I always knew that I had a book in me somewhere throughout my life. I just didn't know where that book was or what it was about, as if it's some really cluttered attic or something so

Unknown Speaker 28:15
and I poured more of myself into that book than I think even you're aware of, and it just meant, it meant a lot to me to put that into the world. And you know, I know, like I remember distinctly when I was writing it, and I knew that the book was done and had to get out, because people started telling me that the drafts they were reading, they were already making changes in their daily life and how they talked to their spouse and their friends

Unknown Speaker 28:44
based on what they had read in the book, and it was changing their life. And I was like, Okay, this like this book, is not only teaching people how to interview their customers, but it's having an impact on their life and making them more empathetic. And that was my absolute

Unknown Speaker 29:01
dream of all dreams with this book, and it's already doing that, so I have to get it out. And then the third reason was, is I kind of refer to it as a professional insurance policy. Like, I don't know if we've talked about this, but it's like I always had a bit of insecurity around the fact that, like, you know, developers, like you, like you could go out and get a freelance job today, like contracting job, a very well paid job today, if you wanted to even, I mean, I know the market for developers is tough right now, but still, like getting a contract for you would not be that hard

Unknown Speaker 29:39
for Matthias to go out and Have to get a job tomorrow, or a contract freelance, whatever would not be that hard for product people. It's a bit harder because our skills are a bit more vague. And so I always felt like, you know if, if an asteroid hits my life and I need to be pulling in an income.

Unknown Speaker 30:00
Am tomorrow, and I am the sole breadwinner for my family. Like I don't have I don't have anything and so, but I feel like the book gave me that, which is that if I had to start consulting tomorrow, if I had to start being a LinkedIn influencer, person who reads customer interview, bedtime stories to people and whatever it is, like, which now I just want to do satire of that, because that would be great. That's funny, and satire is totally up my alley. Like

Unknown Speaker 30:33
I could, I could do that. Like I have, I have that option literally, I mean, like, literally, if you think of insurance policy as an option, right? I have, I have downside risk protection, provided I don't like completely tank my reputation and that I continue paying premiums on that insurance policy, which is to say I do at least one talk a year, which is what I have done, yeah. Um, so I don't remember what the original point was, um, but those are the reasons why I wrote the book. Okay, no, that's really useful to know. So I don't think that. So I just wanted to not date it. So when people find it, and it's like, been recommended in other books now and so, like, it has legs of its own, perfect I just don't want people to come across something that feels outdated or like at one point I mentioned how I quote a friend who, when I say they work at Twitter, and it's like, like, that doesn't like, you know, like, I need to update that somehow or like,

Unknown Speaker 31:30
because they don't work at, you know, Twitter doesn't exist anymore, so there's just like, small I don't want someone to pick it up and be like, Oh, This feels, this feels very 2021, like, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 31:42
and I do worry about that with, like, talking about AI in it, because, I mean, there's so many changes

Unknown Speaker 31:48
coming so fast, but I feel like it is a blind spot out of the book that it doesn't even talk about it. And that's something people like, oh, like, I loved your book, but like, you didn't talk about using AI. So I need to, I need to figure out a way to do that. But mostly I just, you know, when people come across the book, because I've given my once a year talk, though I'm, I think I'm going to do more podcasts and stuff now, because I just have more bandwidth in my life for that that I didn't have the past couple years.

Unknown Speaker 32:15
Um,

Unknown Speaker 32:17
and, or, you know, yeah, because it was recommended, or whatever, like, I just, I want them to, I want, I want to feel like they are in good hands with the book.

Unknown Speaker 32:27
If that makes any sense, yeah, that makes total sense. And I think with that context, we don't need to turn you into an influencer or, like, I think that's perfect. Yeah, I don't think you're not

Unknown Speaker 32:39
saying that.

Unknown Speaker 32:41
Then I would have to start doing like, Tiktok dances on LinkedIn, or something like, all the crazy stuff that people are doing on LinkedIn to get attention. Like, oh, my gracious. Um, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 32:54
awesome.

Unknown Speaker 32:56
I guess I need a goal, a short term, a goal. Print out the book

Unknown Speaker 33:03
and read it and read it. Start there. One little bit. Take one bite of the apple. One teeny, tiny step. Well,

Unknown Speaker 33:12
I don't know. Is that a Is that us for today? Yeah, I got meetings. I got to jump to after this. But this was a good this was a good this is, I mean, I don't know, you might have to cut that whole beginning where we're just

Unknown Speaker 33:25
or leaping in, I don't care.

Unknown Speaker 33:28
Yeah, we'll get it together. Yeah. Well, on that note, I guess we have recorded, and we will record at some points, maybe in the future we'll see

Unknown Speaker 33:45
bye bye bye.