Colleen (00:04.64)
You start, I start? How do we do this?

Michele Hansen (00:05.544)
Yeah, no, Hey, Girlene. Sorry, there was like a pop-up on Riverside about live streaming and I... I don't know if I was doing that accidentally or what it is. Okay. Hi.

Colleen (00:10.51)
Hey, myself.

Colleen (00:16.899)
weird.

Colleen (00:23.95)
Okay. Hi there.

Michele Hansen (00:26.536)
How's it going?

Colleen (00:27.8)
I'm good, how are you?

Michele Hansen (00:30.616)
I'm good. Just some slight lighting challenges today, but so it is. We've established that I look better in darkness. So I apparently live in the right country. Gosh. Today has been an exciting day, though, for both of us, for some of the stuff you've been doing for Geocodeo.

Colleen (00:47.882)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Okay, well, I am excited to talk about it. So I have been working on the CLI for GeoCodeo for a while and we released it today. So it was very, it made me very happy to see my CLI and the Claude code skill out in the wild.

Michele Hansen (01:04.295)
Yay!

Michele Hansen (01:12.752)
Yay! Super exciting. By the way, we are not making a political statement on CLI versus MCP. Let's just get that out of the way right away. No stance intended on MCP is dead or CLI is dead. I don't think anyone ever said CLI was dead, but like, you know. Yeah, we're gonna do both.

Colleen (01:14.232)
day.

Michele Hansen (01:40.348)
But yeah, it's exciting. think it's the first, this is like the first thing you've like shipped for us, right? Like doing AI stuff.

Colleen (01:47.17)
Yep, this is the first big thing. I did do the intercom CRM integration first. Yes, this is the first public facing AI thing I've shipped for Geocodeo, correct. Yes, that's great, it's super fun. I'm excited. And you know, it's interesting because I was thinking about this, and so, you know, I'm doing this AI solutions consulting, and I went to a meetup the other night, and everyone and their brother,

Michele Hansen (01:51.09)
But like the first like public thing with, yeah.

Colleen (02:15.711)
wants to get into AI solutions consulting. Like these guys, I mean, they were very nice, but like they have no engineering background. And you know, I'm building the CLI for you and now the MCP. And I was like, the huge benefit to hiring someone who has an engineering background is they can do these kinds of like more complex workflows and like actual tech stuff instead of just put together like N8N nodes.

Michele Hansen (02:42.663)
I don't even know what that is, admittedly. Yeah.

Colleen (02:44.681)
N8N. It was the hotness. It was like the zappier, it was like the AI zappier replacement that was like the hotness for a second in the marketing community. And so all the marketers, and it's a good product, like I'm not hating on the product. I'm just saying like, it's literally zappier but prettier. So.

yeah, so anyway, it's just, I'm excited about this and it's fun. You know, it's fun to feel like I own something too, you know? Because I'm like, just DM me if you have any problems. So we'll see.

Michele Hansen (03:17.031)
Yeah, yeah, you have like a thing that you own and hopefully people are going to start using it. Like we just had all the emails roll out today with your fun little blog post about using it to plan your road trip using our driving distance API. Super exciting.

Colleen (03:33.493)
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, all good things.

Michele Hansen (03:42.512)
Yeah. God, I'm actually more excited about it than I think is coming across right now. I've just been up since 430 this morning. And I look super pale, OK? My lighting is bad. We have established it. I look extra super pale. Because my body hates me, that's why. Yeah. Can I tell you, I had like

Colleen (03:48.696)
You seem a little tired, babe. You seem like you're barely hanging on there. You keep saying that. It's just, you're in the dark. Why were you up at 430 in the morning? That's what the people wanna know.

Colleen (04:06.175)
If you just woke up and you just were like, well, screw it, I'm gonna get up.

Michele Hansen (04:09.927)
I had the weirdest, I had like a work nightmare last night, but it was a really weird work nightmare. Like I think this is why I woke up. Okay, yeah, this is, okay. So we're building a new Geocodeo website, as you are aware. So exciting. It's been in the works since May of last year, and hopefully we'll have it launched by May. And I have been spending a lot of time this week and the last couple of weeks working on it. I mean, a lot of our team has.

Colleen (04:15.488)
now we gotta hear it.

Colleen (04:22.423)
Woohoo! As I know.

Michele Hansen (04:39.623)
separately, kind of as our like little like stress release, Matias and I have gotten really into the show Ghosts. I don't know if you've seen it. Okay, so it's basically the show about this couple who inherit an old manor and then it's full of all of these like friendly, funny, sometimes like trickstery ghosts. Like basically like kind of like Casper but like they've all got their own backstories and personalities and everything.

Colleen (04:48.533)
Nope. No.

Michele Hansen (05:09.447)
and we're watching the British version. I hear there's also an American version, but we have Britbox, so that's what I'm watching. Anyway, so that's what we've been watching at the end of the day. And I had a dream last night that combined the website with ghosts, and so one of the kids, this is gonna sound so weird, and it was such a weird dream that I was like,

Colleen (05:16.535)
Okay.

Michele Hansen (05:36.272)
I can't believe I didn't realize in the dream how weird and impossible it was. But okay, so I don't think this is a spoiler, but one of the characters in Ghost's, her backstory, or in part of what she does, she's this really regal Edwardian woman who has the big hair where it looks like they kind of, the hair poofs around the side, right? And then they've got a little dot on top, right? Like that very, you know, like.

almost like a crown like hairstyle, right? And then she's like wearing like a fancy dress and everything. Anyway, her thing is that she like jumps out of a second floor window every night screaming. It's like part of her story. And I had a dream that like the website components, so like a table or a code block or like, you know, a feature, like a block of like four feature boxes or whatever, that the website components were like

jumping out the window screaming. Like these things just, don't, that's exactly, I'm like, I'm literally like picturing like elements from Figma, like just jumping out of a window screaming. And it is just like, it was so weird. And I was like, how is this even possible? This is, guess, just what my brain is thinking about a lot these days.

Colleen (06:34.387)
What? I don't even know how to respond.

Colleen (06:43.413)
jumping out the window.

Colleen (06:48.023)
That is the weirdest.

Michele Hansen (06:58.437)
It was really strange because they were like super crisp in my head. That's like, yeah, that's the testimonial element jumping out the window. Yeah. I know it was so strange and like I really should have like, I should have woken up from like picturing like a little, you know, rectangle of yeah, a testimonial or whatever jumping out the window.

Colleen (07:08.429)
mean, there are no words. That is so ridiculous.

is very strange.

Michele Hansen (07:23.343)
Yeah, so that's me lately. asked how I am. That's how I am.

Michele Hansen (07:40.386)
I don't- I- You know, in this show, there are- the woman is already dead, so there- you know, maybe it's a slide. You know. I don't know. I should probably cut that. That was just weird. That was so weird. Yeah, you know what? Okay. Okay.

Colleen (07:45.862)
Mm-hmm. That makes it better.

Colleen (07:55.789)
Okay, cool.

Colleen (07:59.424)
All of our podcasts are weird. Like, I don't know what to tell you. We don't even try to not be weird anymore.

Michele Hansen (08:05.413)
We have given up. think that's, you know, I guess, I guess, I don't know if we ever told people this. We're getting a little meta for a second. The way I think about this podcast is basically car talk, right? Which is like, I grew up listening to car talk, probably listened to it for like 20 years every Saturday. I cannot tell you anything about cars though, right? But what's enjoyable is listening to two people who like talking to each other.

Colleen (08:13.514)
I love being meta.

Colleen (08:20.223)
yes, right.

Colleen (08:31.426)
Yeah.

Colleen (08:35.33)
Yes.

Michele Hansen (08:36.239)
And so we are not the podcast to listen to if you want to know what all the new hotness is in AI or whatever, right? If you are walking your dog, hello. This is why we are here. Dreams about Figma. No, but I'm super excited about the CLI. I think it's...

Colleen (08:44.395)
Right. Yeah. Right. Doing the dishes, walking the dog, making dinner. We're your people.

Dreams about Figma. Yeah, that's normal.

Michele Hansen (09:04.391)
I was talking to a founder this morning. feel like with all of my founder friends, the conversation at some point comes back to how are you dealing with AI in relation to your business? And that's independent of the how are you using AI to run your business, right? That is different than how are you getting your engineers to adopt it?

Colleen (09:20.961)
Yes.

Colleen (09:27.061)
Right. To run your business. Right.

Michele Hansen (09:33.135)
What kind of tooling do you have? And how are you getting people on board? And how are you operationalizing it? And how are you using it with your non-developers? How are you getting every, how you're using it as a company is one thing, and how you're thinking about how it relates to your company and the future of your company is something entirely different. And this is something that really,

Like, it really runs the gamut of how people feel about that. Like, some people justifiably feel very, very threatened, right? I think anyone who runs a SaaS that is a per-seat model, all of those people I know are pretty scared because those feel like the kinds of things where the product is like the software, right? They are like, OK, but people could just vibe code this.

Colleen (10:21.591)
Mm-hmm.

Michele Hansen (10:27.963)
what is our value here, right? And I think for us kind of being data providers.

Michele Hansen (10:38.203)
I think we feel kind of okay, given that we have 12 years worth of knowledge and expertise on data sourcing and how to work with that data. There's so many edge cases. I think we feel like we're kind of okay. But really the path forward for us is working with AI and making it easier for people to use what we do in an AI context. So that's why it was so important to ship

the CLI with an agent skill. And that was something we came back to was, or we talked about was like, do we ship the CLI on its own first? Like we have this old CLI, but it's like, I'm sorry. It's like only for like this one API endpoint of ours and like, do we ship it alone or do we ship it with an agent skill? And we're like, everybody just lives in cloud code these days. Or I don't know, I feel like it's like.

Do you feel like people are like souring on Claude lately?

Colleen (11:39.891)
No, I think so today 4.7 came out today, right? Yeah. Like literally I... Breaking news! So people are joking.

Michele Hansen (11:43.112)
See, I didn't even know this. Again, this is not your AI news podcast. Though apparently breaking news. Opus 4.7 came out today. We go to Colleen. Colleen is on the floor talking to Opus now. Colleen!

Colleen (11:55.406)
People are joking that... live in living color.

Michele Hansen (12:04.091)
I'm just like picturing you on the floor of like a basketball stadium, you know? I'm here with the head coach now.

Colleen (12:08.577)
AI news. Okay, let me actually check this. So people have been joking that like 4.6 got bad just so they could prep us and now they just released 4.7 so we're gonna be happy again. So fingers crossed. No, I don't think people are souring at all. I think people are still full of rage, including myself, when Claud, because it's been broken so much. Like in the past two weeks I've had it.

Michele Hansen (12:33.861)
Okay, that's why I think like souring. Like I feel like it's like so often it's like, can't process your request right now. Or like it's taking the lazy way out of something or like, I'm like, Claude, like.

Colleen (12:44.833)
But have you tried, see here's the thing. This happened two days in the past two weeks where Claude was basically useless, so I switched to Codex. I hate Codex. Do you use Codex? Yeah, well, I mean, it's not, okay, like, so I switched to Codex, so was like, okay, I need an assistant. So I try all these different models and all these different UIs, and I just think Claude Code is way better than Codex in my own personal opinion.

Michele Hansen (12:54.651)
I haven't tried it. No, we only use Claude.

Michele Hansen (13:07.951)
Okay, in my experience, Claude gets significantly worse and more buggy-er and I just have more issues connecting and all that kind of stuff at two o'clock my time, which is eight a.m. Eastern. basically, yeah. So basically when the U.S. wakes up, Claude goes to hell.

Colleen (13:22.87)
Okay.

East Coast, yeah.

Michele Hansen (13:32.101)
And I'm like, literally every day at two o'clock, I start having issues with Claude and I'm like, thanks America. But I'm curious since you're on the other side of this, do you find that Claude gets better when the East Coast logs off? Does Claude get better for you at 2 p.m. when the East Coast Workday is ending? Is the East Coast the problem?

Colleen (13:37.933)
Ha

Colleen (13:52.649)
It does. The East Coast is the problem. It kind of...

Michele Hansen (13:56.262)
My god, as a New Englander, this hurts, but also, like, you know, I can slag off my own people, it's fine.

Colleen (14:05.612)
yeah, I think it does. I think that is true.

Michele Hansen (14:10.119)
All right, well, look, this is breaking news coming to you live, not live, because it's coming out tomorrow, live from Software Social. Claude Opus 4.7 is out and the East Coast is the problem.

Colleen (14:24.371)
You

Michele Hansen (14:26.855)
Yeah, no, but seriously, like I plan my work around it. Like I'm like, okay, I know if I'm be doing stuff that requires like heavy clod usage, I need to get that in in the morning. And then I also have meetings in the afternoon anyway, so it's kind of like.

Colleen (14:36.286)
in the morning. Well, well, and I, what I hate about it is, so I've been trying since, you know, I'm working with your team more, I've been trying to be at my desk closer to 730, not every day, but some days. So like yesterday I sat down at, it's the whole thing, we can talk about that later. No, no, no, you did not ask me to do that. No, I just to be clear, Michelle never asked me to do that. I just like to do that some days. And so, but like yesterday, it's terrible when you're like first thing in the morning, that's my most,

Michele Hansen (14:47.355)
Woof. Sorry, I didn't ask her to do that. I'm just gonna like.

Colleen (15:05.908)
impact full time, like I am so much better in the morning. And like I almost sent a group Slack, then I was like, our Slack can't just be complaining about Claude. But it was 740 in the morning and I was getting 500 errors and I was like, come on man. right, that's because it's the middle of the morning in the East Coast.

Michele Hansen (15:18.385)
That's because it's 1040 in the East Coast.

Yeah, you should wait until like maybe like 9 a.m. your time, East Coast lunchtime. Like maybe you've got like a you should experiment and be like, do I have a window from 9 to 10 a.m.? And then again, after 2 p.m.

Colleen (15:27.946)
Yeah, start then.

Colleen (15:32.726)
while they're eating lunch.

Colleen (15:36.585)
you

Michele Hansen (15:40.506)
No, it's interesting. guess, I mean, I guess for your job, like, you know, like consulting, right, for all for about AI stuff, like you kind of have to know all of the different models and like, do you feel like you turned like different tools for different things? Like, I think the only time I do that is if I need to generate an image, I'll use chat GPT or Gemini for that. Claude is not super great.

Colleen (15:58.294)
Yes, I do.

Michele Hansen (16:06.393)
at generating images unless you tell it to make a website and then it kind of does an image but even then it's still, that's the only sort of hack around but feel like chat GPT is much better at making an image but even for coding workflows and stuff like that, I only use Clot code. Yeah.

Colleen (16:24.119)
Claude. Yeah. So I prefer, I mean, if I had my druthers.

Michele Hansen (16:32.81)
wait, you just cut out. I can't hear you.

Michele Hansen (21:21.873)
Yeah.

I saw that. OK, so let's just. god, my hair looks terrible. It's not our day. So Colleen had a slight technical issue, so we were picking back up. Yay. OK, so I think I was asking you about when you use different AI.

Colleen (21:33.876)
It's really not our day. Sorry, we got it, we got it.

Colleen (21:42.096)
But I'm back! Woohoo!

Colleen (21:53.052)
models.

Michele Hansen (21:54.267)
for different things, if you do.

Colleen (21:56.038)
Yes. Yeah. So I prefer Claude code for all coding activities. I only use Codex when I think Claude is lying to me or I'm unsure about a direction, or it goes down as it has done recently. And then I always

Michele Hansen (22:12.433)
Do ever have them argue with each other? Be like, well, Codex said you should do this. What does it say back?

Colleen (22:16.712)
I do sometimes, I mean, it's I mean, it's not that exciting. It's usually just like, wow. That's a great point. Let me reevaluate the criteria with that information.

Michele Hansen (22:29.383)
Matias and I were working on something about our upcoming UK launch the other day. And at one point I was like, well, this is what you told Matias.

Colleen (22:39.219)
Yeah

Colleen (22:42.568)
That's amazing.

Michele Hansen (22:46.471)
yeah.

Colleen (22:46.614)
I love that. And then I always use NanoBanana. I pay for NanoBanana Pro, so I always use NanoBanana for PDFs, know, those LinkedIn things, carousels and images, any kind of image work I use NanoBanana for. So, yeah. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (22:58.149)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Cool.

I thought I had more to say about that, I don't. So, okay, hold on. One more thing I want to talk about that I was excited about today. So, we are gonna be hosting a Lara Bells event at Laricon US this summer. And it was just announced today and I'm super excited about it because...

Colleen (23:07.368)
That's okay. That's great. Dude.

Colleen (23:24.307)
Yay!

Michele Hansen (23:31.72)
I don't know, do you experience this where I'm one of the few, I'm often one of the few women in the room when I go to a conference, right? And so that means that the organizers ask me how to get more women there. And of course, my first thought is like, well, I'm a woman who's comfortable going to a conference that's mostly men, so I'm probably not the right person to ask, right? The people you need to ask are the people who aren't here, right? But then I'm like, okay, but what can I do about this?

Colleen (23:42.184)
Yes.

Colleen (23:47.528)
Yes.

Michele Hansen (24:01.383)
and started talking to people about this. Also, talked to another company who's very involved in Laravel community, Titan, people over there last summer at Laricon about this. How can we get more women and non-binary people, people who aren't men at these conferences? And I think what we ended up talking about was how for women especially, the buddy system is so drilled into us from such a young age.

and how you just don't go anywhere alone. I remember there was a comedian who had a whole bit about women always go to the bathroom together or whatever, right? But it's like, this is so drilled into us. And then I was thinking about it. And anyway, so we're doing this event basically the day beforehand so that people can make a friend and meet the other people. So it's like, you feel comfortable going to social events or...

Colleen (24:40.882)
Hahaha

Michele Hansen (24:57.095)
you have someone to eat dinner with or whatever that is, right? To sit with. But I was thinking about this and I was thinking about how you and I, remember when we were talking about going to founder summit in 20, what's it, 2021? 2022? 2021?

Colleen (25:11.361)
my gosh. think it was before I, was like, think 2021.

Michele Hansen (25:15.619)
And like, and I was just thinking about this and it's like...

I didn't really have any reason to fear for my safety in that environment. I think I was invited as a speaker. I was an investor in the fund that was running it. There was nothing about it that made me feel dangerous. But what I was thinking about was in danger. There is a difference between not being in danger and being certain of your safety. Do you know what I mean? Those feel like two different things.

Colleen (25:25.524)
Agree.

Colleen (25:46.94)
Okay, sure. I can get behind that.

Michele Hansen (25:48.099)
Right? Like it's like, like not being...

I don't know how to explain that. Yeah, I think there's a difference between those. And so even if I didn't have any active concerns about it, that didn't mean about it being unsafe. It didn't mean on the flip side I was 100 % certain that I would eat. Do know what I mean? And I had every reason to feel safe there. But both of us were like, yeah, I'm only going if you're going. Like, complete buddy system.

Colleen (26:09.684)
I think so.

Colleen (26:14.056)
Yes.

Yes.

Michele Hansen (26:18.041)
And so I'm kind of excited about it as a little like an experiment away in a way, like if we advertise it in advance, like this far in advance, like, does it help, you know, people who would not have otherwise gone go to the conference?

Colleen (26:34.812)
OK, I have a lot of opinions. Are you ready for them? yeah, OK, this. OK, when people ask me how to get more people, I guess what irks the heck out of me is people act like they don't know how to get more women at conferences. The way to get more women at conferences is to pay for them to go to the conference. Full stop women are historically still in 2026 incredibly underrepresented in tech.

Michele Hansen (26:37.186)
do you? Yeah.

Colleen (27:03.88)
They usually have lower paying jobs, which is wrong, but that's just how it is. They're newer to the industry. Asking them to drop three grand on a conference, which is what you spend when you go to a conference, is insane. So if you want more women at your conferences, you have to reach out to people in the community. Like there needs to be a scholarship. You need to reach out, even if you can just give them a free conference ticket. Like if the conference organizers ask, give them a free conference ticket. So that's my my soap box is like.

When people act like these problems are hard to solve, I do not think they are hard to solve. I think people just don't want the answer. However, in addition to that, I think you are 100 % correct is then even if it's not like a safety issue, like I don't really think, I mean, I don't really worry about that. I don't think a lot of people worry about safety as much as just like a comfortable, like a level of being comfortable at a conference. Yes.

Michele Hansen (27:40.27)
Mmm.

Michele Hansen (28:00.027)
Yeah, I guess that's what I mean. like, think, but like, I when I, kind of intentionally went out and talked to other like women and non-binary people. And I was like, do you feel comfortable going to conferences alone? And if, if, if not, like, what would you make, like, what would you do instead? Like, like, how would you, what would make you feel comfortable? Or like, what have you done when you have gone alone? And like,

people told me like, I skip all of the social networking events, any event where there's alcohol, I don't go to it. And like some people said that's because they had had issues in the past, in terms of how they were treated, or because they were afraid of being issues, because they knew other people who had had issues. I'm not, these are not people talking about Laricon, by the way, there's like just conferences in general. Nobody said that about Laricon specifically.

or that they would only go if they had a friend who lived in that city and that friend knew where they were the whole time. I think people just making a lot of modifications basically so that they feel comfortable.

Colleen (29:04.852)
But I would argue like that's not gender specific. Like no one wants to go to a conference where they don't have friends. Right?

Michele Hansen (29:12.327)
No, no, no, completely. I think that's like, I mean, that's the one thing that kind of makes me be like, there's so many people who show up to a conference feeling awkward, but like, I think there's a difference between showing up not knowing anybody being afraid to go because you don't know anybody and feeling awkward versus not going because you're afraid of being assaulted. Like those feel like two very different things.

Colleen (29:31.656)
Yeah, but I don't really think the latter is a real thing. Maybe I'm wrong. It is. Okay, okay. So I think, yeah, I guess, so this is just my frustration is like, like I said, it's usually a money thing.

Michele Hansen (29:34.612)
Colleen no, we're not doing that on this podcast. No. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (29:47.175)
And again, we're both women who are pretty much comfortable with this. So we're not the right people to ask,

Colleen (29:54.526)
I think it's a money thing and I think your idea is excellent because I think you are absolutely right. You want a friend, you want a buddy, you want someone you know, especially to get you out of uncomfortable or awkward conversations. So I think what you are planning is excellent. Like I think that's a great, okay, no. Does Laravel have a guide scholar program? That is how I started going to Rails conferences. Okay, you need to go back to the Laravel people and tell them they should do.

Michele Hansen (30:16.507)
I don't know. What is that?

Colleen (30:23.068)
a guide scholar program. So we did this at Rails like back when Rails was like really kicking and it was the most amazing program ever. I was a scholar and then I was a guide and it took underrepresented people in tech and it paired them with an experienced person in the field who was experienced at the conference and had been to conferences before and like you met up beforehand and then there were like special receptions. You got like front row seats at the keynotes.

Amazing, amazing program. That's the kind of program that's gonna get underrepresented people in tech to conferences.

Michele Hansen (30:58.415)
And were you paired up with other underrepresented people or like were you paired up with like

Colleen (31:02.278)
Yeah, so it was a whole group. let's say they were like, and you got a free ticket to the conference. Like they didn't pay your way or anything, but I think you got a free ticket or a discounted ticket to the conference. And there were maybe 20 of us. And so there was like a reception just for the 40, 20 scholars and 20 guides. So there's like a reception before the exactly what you're describing, like a day zero thing, which is before the conference. So you can meet other scholars and then the reserve seating at the keynote. So you would start seeing the same people over and over. We'd sit together at lunch.

Michele Hansen (31:28.135)
Mmm.

Colleen (31:29.928)
Like it was a whole thing. It was so well done. That was the most effective thing, I think.

Michele Hansen (31:36.828)
That sounds really awesome. mean, in the Laravel world, there's, you know, there's Lara Bells, which is the organization we're hosting the event with. And that's the Laravel community organization for women and non-binary people. And they often, you know, give away a free ticket to the conference. We've sponsored the ticket in the past.

Colleen (31:38.323)
Yes.

Michele Hansen (32:02.951)
I don't think there's like a formal program like that. you know, I guess I should say that, you know, a concern I have about any sort of like, yeah, like, I feel like with like my kind of gripe with women's events sometimes, it's like, okay, there's like, you know, the regular conference networking happy hour thing, and then there's the women's one off to the side. And I'm like, is this helping if like the women are pulled out?

of the room and they're not meeting people when really we need to be better integrated into the room, right? Like we can't like, and like, and I think this is why we're doing it on. I think like, like this is why we're doing it on day zero. And there's intentionally like nothing else on the calendar at that point. So you don't have to choose. we're not separating people out. So I just, feel like, I don't know, I feel like that often happens with these events, right? Like they're, they're,

Colleen (32:40.436)
community. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (33:01.997)
actually kind of making the problem worse in a way. Like the problem is not, you know, the women not knowing each other. It's like us, you know, not being integrated and, and, you know, supported and like part of the community. Right. And I'm not, and I'm guessing we in general, because I feel quite supported and included. And so it was super important to me to not like perpetuate that pattern of like separating people.

Colleen (33:30.664)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the Rails community does this so well. So I just think that like if the conference organizers are serious about it, this whole scholars guides and like all the times we got together so you felt like you knew people and I totally agree with you. think that the event in conjunction in a way where it doesn't conflict with other events is absolutely the way to go. I think that's great.

Michele Hansen (33:50.416)
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see if anyone picks up that idea around guides. That sounds like a really awesome program. I'm really curious. Maybe there's some conference organizers listening, and I would love to hear from them how they get underrepresented people more included in their conferences. I think that really makes a statement these days, too. It makes an even stronger statement than it used to.

Colleen (34:15.924)
I think too though, problem is conferences are so, everyone I know who's run a conference has lost money. So I think this is the tension is like they have to charge for tickets. They can't give away, know, all these under, you know, I think that's probably part of the tension they have to, yeah, I don't

Michele Hansen (34:20.229)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (34:31.365)
Yeah, but I think, I mean, like, if they could charge an extra 50 bucks per ticket, like, and it's mostly companies who are paying for the tickets, like, that's not going to be a big difference if that can offset, you know, if you charge an extra, I mean, I have an organizer conference, so I'm like, how hard could it possibly be, Michael, you know, like an extra $50 for a banana, right? Like, you know, so I'm just totally talking out of, you know, there. But yeah, I think, I mean, I mean, there's very real economics that they're up against, right?

Colleen (34:50.6)
Ha

Michele Hansen (35:00.775)
But I don't know, think at least as sort of like a community thing basically, we're going to try to do something about it.

Colleen (35:06.516)
That's amazing. So you guys are sponsoring event and it's the day before it's the night like the

Michele Hansen (35:11.201)
Yeah, yeah, and so we did we did a thing at Leracon EU in Amsterdam. But that was that was day one. And just because like timing wise, that was just what worked out. I realized actually that we're not doing anything for Lerval Live UK. But we're like, dude, we're so busy that week that I'm like, I don't think I have time. Like we're doing a team on site that week and like.

We're sponsored, like it's just gonna be so chaotic. I feel like Lericon US is gonna be a bit more chill, even though, I mean, we are sponsoring, but like, you we're getting in a couple of days beforehand and we're not doing like a team on site thing. Like we're going to a baseball game, but like, well not just a baseball game, we're going to the Red Sox game. I know, but yeah, I think it'll be good.

I'm excited to see if it makes any difference. guess that's one thing about this is I think that's responsibility that we carry that like, not only are we there, but like the fact that we are there means we carry this responsibility of getting other people to be there, right? Like people are asking us, how do I get more women here, right? Like they're putting that responsibility on us, right? And it's like, yeah.

one more form of emotional labor that we're doing, Yeah. Though I mean, like, we're sponsoring, you know, like we're hiring engineers. So it's like, there's like, there's, it's not just, you know, labor in that sense.

Colleen (36:31.866)
yeah, for sure. Welcome to the, just add it to the list.

Colleen (36:43.324)
Well, I think what you're doing is great. And I think the hardest part is just letting people know that you're doing it, right? Like getting the word out there, you're doing it. think that's great. And like, I think that kind of stuff does make people feel more comfortable. So, and if you feed them, they'll be even happier. I'm just saying, okay.

Michele Hansen (36:48.603)
So yay, I'm doing it! Yeah. And I appreciate people spreading the word. Like, you know.

Michele Hansen (36:58.833)
Yeah.

That is the plan. Yeah, we did find a place that has food. I really wanted to find somewhere that didn't have alcohol, that wasn't like alcohol-centric. But it turns out like, you know, organizing a pottery class or whatever that's within a 10-minute walk of a venue and like, you know, or like, I was like, laser tag would have been super fun or like mini golf, but there's nothing close by. So, oh well, restaurants are easy.

Colleen (37:19.538)
Yeah, too many moving pieces.

Michele Hansen (37:30.247)
I don't know. guess, yeah, I guess that's what I'm excited about today. Is there anything else you're excited about today that we didn't talk about?

Colleen (37:37.722)
let's see, what else did I want to talk about? I don't think so. yeah.

Michele Hansen (37:43.963)
What are you excited about in general? What are you guys watching on TV? Hopefully that's not giving you nightmares related to Figma.

Colleen (37:47.7)
That's not giving me nightmares. What am I excited about in general? We're watching Shrinking. Do you watch Shrinking?

Michele Hansen (37:57.768)
yes, okay, no, I think we watched like the first episode of the new season and then we forgot about it. But not because we don't like it, we just forgot.

Colleen (37:59.806)
So good.

Colleen (38:03.751)
Yeah, that happens to us too.

happens to us too. Yes, it's kind of heavy. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (38:08.635)
But also you kind of have to be in the right mood for it. like it is kind of an intense, I mean, so good, but it's kind of intense for anybody who liked Ted Lasso. It's this, think it's the same show runner as Ted Lasso, right? Yeah. So same vibes. If you haven't seen Ted Lasso, you got to watch Ted Lasso. Even if you don't like soccer or football, right? It's, it's a show about leadership. That's why you should watch Ted Lasso. Okay. Good. It is the best show and it's coming back. yeah. No, they're not going to ruin it. It's going to be good.

Colleen (38:17.734)
It is. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Colleen (38:25.01)
yeah, Ted Lasso, best show on TV.

show on TV.

I heard that. I hope they don't ruin it.

Okay. Okay.

Michele Hansen (38:37.927)
I trust them. Yeah, shrinking is good. But yeah, is a little bit intense. Yeah.

Colleen (38:45.452)
It's a heavy, a lot of the Apple TV shows are like that. Like they're good, but they're heavy. Like they're just not pure fun, but I do really like it.

Michele Hansen (38:53.041)
Well, that's what prestige TV is. It's heavy. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I'm gonna go watch some Ghosts with Mathias. And it's what? I don't know, 10 a.m. for you, so. It's actually 7.30. I made you wake up. It's really early to.

Colleen (38:56.628)
I guess you're right. guess that's it. That works.

Colleen (39:04.924)
Okay. Hopefully it doesn't give you nightmares. I know, right? It's actually noon, so I get to eat lunch now.

No, you didn't. didn't. It is interesting though, because like what like I am trying. So I always used to work out at 630, but if I work out at 630 and then I shower and I have to. Be on a video podcast. I can't be to my desk till like 830 or 9 so I have been. Is this kind of been like an interesting challenge? Like I know I don't have to sit down early, but I kind of like like to. So like then how do you fit in the working out and like how do you fit in everything else? It's hard like.

Michele Hansen (39:40.038)
It is a challenge, right? We've been actually working out at night this week. I worked out Monday and Wednesday night, which was like, it was really nice. I think on Monday, I went around like 5, 5.30.

Colleen (39:46.996)
It's so hard for me. I'm so tired. You liked it? What time? Like how late?

Michele Hansen (39:57.64)
And was pretty busy. That was like not a good time to go. But then yesterday I went at like six and there was nobody there except for one of my friends, like two of my friends. It was great. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but like there I know. Yeah.

Colleen (39:57.651)
Okay.

Yeah.

Colleen (40:08.198)
Nice, because that's peak dinner time. You have friends in Denmark? You make it sound like you don't have any friends. That's so great. I mean, any in real life friends.

Michele Hansen (40:21.479)
People hate me.

Colleen (40:22.196)
I know, just because you didn't speak the language very well and it sounded like there was a lot of cultural stuff.

Michele Hansen (40:29.191)
At the start, was hard, yeah. Between COVID and language and everything else, yeah. It was definitely, but that was six years ago. I've made a friend or two since then. Yeah, there were other parents from school and their daughter was doing an activity at the gym basically. But that was actually really good. My problem is that I have to go home at some point. so, not that I don't like going home, but like...

Colleen (40:31.997)
Yeah.

Colleen (40:35.988)
Thanks a lot.

That's true. my gosh, that was six years ago.

Colleen (40:44.008)
That's awesome.

Michele Hansen (40:58.491)
I very easily end up in the gym for like two hours. Like I need to like force myself to go home. Like, so it's, and like when I go in the morning, I'm like, okay, like, you know, I'm like, I need to be at my desk by 11. Or like lately I'm like trying to only do a one hour workout. So I'm at my desk by 10. So it kind of like forces me to like, just like stick to like the plan.

Colleen (41:03.186)
Whoa. Okay.

Colleen (41:12.777)
Right.

Colleen (41:24.872)
Yeah, I see what you mean.

Michele Hansen (41:24.891)
versus if it's like a Saturday or Sunday or it's at night, I'm like.

Okay, like I could do a little bit more mobility exercises and stretching to start and then I do my workout and then but I might be like, like I saw this thing on Instagram, like, let me do some sets of that. Like that looked like fun. And then so like before I know it, like the my like main workout is like an hour and 20 minutes or an hour and a half. And then I'm like, why should you just do some cardio while I'm here for like 20 minutes? And then I'm like, well, I might as well do press handstands and like, like lifts and stuff like and then so like, and then I like and then I'm like completely exhausted. And then I and then I go home.

Colleen (41:52.02)
I might as well!

Colleen (41:59.496)
Yeah, I see.

Michele Hansen (42:00.768)
And so it's, I need to like force myself to stop. Is that a weird problem? Yeah, yeah. Right, but if it's like I need, I have a meeting at 10 or have a meeting at 11, like then I have to be done, I have to go.

Colleen (42:07.58)
No, I get it. That makes sense to me. Yeah, because you don't have a forcing function on the back end. Yeah.

Yeah, you have to be done.

Michele Hansen (42:23.783)
don't like the gym though. I do. I sprained a finger like a couple weeks ago tumbling. Did I tell you about that? Yeah. Yeah. And so like I haven't been able to do arms for like two weeks until yesterday. And I like, I missed it. I missed it.

Colleen (42:25.416)
Good. That's awesome.

Ooh, you, yeah, you told me.

Colleen (42:35.688)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's tough when you sprain a finger. I sprained a finger once doing a burpee. Like I landed on my finger wrong and just boop and it was rough. Like it's just, it's your hands, right? So I, I appreciate that. That sucks.

Michele Hansen (42:44.938)
Ugh.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, do I need to start using whisper flow for like all of my work? like, I like I couldn't even type for a couple of days. was interesting. OK, we're getting rambly. And whoever is listening to this, like their dog is just so tired at this point. They're like, can Michelle Colleen just shut up already so I can go lay on the couch? Like, so for the sake of everyone's dogs, we will sign off for today. Bye.

Colleen (42:53.69)
For everything.

Colleen (42:57.652)
you

Yep, yep, we're getting rambly.

Colleen (43:05.069)
Colleen (43:15.336)
Bye.