Michele: Hi, everyone.

Welcome back to Software Social.

I am so excited to have two guests with
me today, Michael Rouveure and Damon Chen.

These are two founders you've probably
come across on Twitter or perhaps

in the founder summit community.

Both of them, have been funded by
calm fund and so today we're kind of

hear about their experiences launching
their companies and what that has

been like being part of calm fund.

So Damon and Michael welcome.

Michael: Thanks for having.

Michele: Yeah, I'm so excited.

So, so let's jump right into this.

So Damon Chen, you are the
founder of testimonial.

Take me back to the beginning.

How did you even start with
having your own company?

Where did that.

Damon: Go back to the early
2020 when the pandemic just hit.

And, you know, a lot of tech companies
you know, I used to work for Cisco,

and Cisco is one of them, you know,
ask all employees work from home.

And you know, it can make
me lonely in the beginning.

And, during that time I was pretty
fascinated about, in indie hackers

community, but, you know, w when
reading those posts and reading those

comments, and I still kinda feel
lonely and I'm thinking why, right.

So it's in the end.

I still can't really build the
connection between the person who

replied me, the person who made
the post, and it's all text based.

And I'm thinking what if that I make a
video focused community, and I started

to build the MVP, and I launched the
product, I launched the community, and

it was called lonely.dev back then.

And cause you know, it was just
to represent myself, and I kind of

felt very lonely in the beginning
and, uh, that's the first thing

that I built, it was just for fun.

During the time that I launched
the community, and I was still

employed by Cisco, I got my paycheck
and didn't have any of my vision,

you know, and this kind of goal.

And I'm met a lot of friends during
the time that I built the lonely dev,

and after that, you know, I thought the
pandemic would just disappear, at the

end of the year, but I still didn't.

And I, it kind of become a problem
between my day job and my side hustle

and also my family, because back then
my daughter was like one half years

old, and we were afraid to send her to
daycare because we care about her safety.

And, at the end of 2020, I decided
to, you know, take a unpaid leave from,

for six months and because the unpaid
leave won't give me any paycheck.

And I started to have these kind
of, you know, financial pressure.

And I started to think that, you know,
I shipped quite a lot of features,

these kind of stuff into the lonely dev.

And the why not, I can pivot the
idea into a stand alone product.

And also meantime, reuse as much
code as possible because, for me

personally, there's a lot of, you
know, opportunity costs and time cost

for me to build a brand new product.

The best use case for me is to just
reuse the code that I previously shipped

to lonely dev and try to see if I
can pivot into a standalone product.

So I was just, you know, brainstorming
the things that I added to the lonely

dev and of course, I think that I
added is the video recording and the

video streaming, this kind of thing.

And, you know, for a indie hacker, because
I built several, you know side projects,

but I also have one common problem,
which is, how can I sell the product?

How can I get the social proof and
prove that potential buyers that, hey,

this is the legit and you can buy it.

And I do have happy customers and a
testimonial comes into my picture.

And, there's one moment that, the
Shopify, I think the Shopify website,

and I saw some video testimonials.

And that's was really a spur of a
moment that I think probably I can

build it video testimonial thing.

And, that became the beginning of the
testimonial and I just reused almost

80% or 90% of the code from lonely dev.

And, uh, you know, go to landing
page for testimonial and then launch

it right before the Christmas.

And I got several thousand
revenue from the launch.

And I think that became a hit to
myself and also a strong validation

that it probably can be a thing.

So that, yeah, that's the
beginning of the whole journey.

Michele: So that was interesting.

So you started out basically by building
something for yourself to solve your

own loneliness during COVID, which
I think is something, I think a lot

of us definitely feel, and then,
you know, at a certain point, you

decided to take this leave from work.

And so, and that kind of spurred
you to say, okay, well, how can

I maybe start making some extra
money while I take this leave?

Which it sounded like really
for your family, you knew

you needed to take that time.

And so that, got you looking for, I
guess, sort of opening your eyes a

bit more on opportunities to sort of
monetize what you had already built.

I mean, it's pretty amazing that you were
able to reuse 80%, of the code and, and

you were also solving a very core problem
that a lot of people have at the same

time of how do I, how do I let people know
that, you know, I'm legit and that this,

you know, that this is a good product.

I'm curious, so when did you,
so you said that you launched

testimonial december of 2020.

Is that right?

So when does your leave from work start.

Damon: I think a month before.

Michele: A month beforehand.

Okay.

So you were kind of already feeling a
little bit of that pressure at that point

of not having, a salary during that time.

Damon: Yeah, but the good thing is
for me, for my family is that my wife

works full-time, and I worked for Cisco
for eight years in the Silicon valley.

And, you know, we do have
quite enough savings.

So for me, I can foresee what
would be the worst case for me,

which is I lost one year of income.

And, uh, you know, before quit
my job, and I just promise to my

wife, if I can't really make it
work, you know, my goal is to hit a

100,000 ARR by end of the year 2021.

And if I can really make it, I
would just to go back to find

a job at any tech company.

So that's the goal that I promise
to my wife, you know, but luckily

I made it before, uh, 2021 ends and
I can still continue my, you know,

I guess, to continue to pursue.

Michele: That's awesome.

So you went from in December of 2020,
had a really good response from that.

How did you come across calm fund and,
and I'm curious, what your thoughts

were when you first came across.

Damon: I first came across, definitely
from the in indie hackers community, uh,

where, you know, Tyler was interviewed.

A bit before that, uh, what I know is all
about, you know, tech crunch, Y combinator

or these kind of, you know, very uh,
famous, uh, them in a Silicon Valley.

And I never heard about, the calm
fund, unless I listened Tyler next

podcast and then I'm like, wow,
there's a VC of that to give you money.

And, uh, you can do it to what you used to
do, and they don't give you any pressure.

They don't push you to move faster
and, uh, And how amazing it is.

And that, that seems like, you know,
the best fit for me, because I do

have family, I do have a very young
kid and I don't really want, you

know, to take money and also adds up
a lot of external pressure on myself.

And I just, uh, want to
continue to do what I do.

And, that's why I think
that calm will be a perfect.

Michele: It's interesting that you
talk about, you know, the, like the

tech crunch type of funding and,
you know, VC and everything else.

Damon: I applied Y Combinator
for several times, and I never

got an interview request.

And I just kept applying a Y Combinator
and Y com I already is the only, you,

know, the incubator or, you know,
these kind of stuff that I heard about.

And after, you know, being a
lurker, in the in hackers community,

and I heard quite a lot of stuff
I heard about, you know, MRR.

What is MRR, what is ARR, and all
these kinds of, you know, inspiring

founders and a calm fund and this kind
of interesting VCs that maybe a better

fit at for in any hackers like us.

Michele: Yeah.

You know, thinking about it, like, I
think something is really different about,

You know about calm is that they will
fund companies that are side projects.

Indeed.

It's a selling point.

If it's a side project, that's already
making money because I mean, even in

the, you know, the free flowing VC
capital days of, you know, say 20 15

to early 2020, and then it kind of
picked up a little bit for the last

two years and now it's back down again.

But even during the free-flowing
times, like if you've got a side

project like that, they'll just,
they won't even reply to your email.

They will just show you the door
because it's taken as the signal

that you're somehow not serious
enough about what you're doing.

And they just have no interest in it.

And calm is like very different, right?

Damon: Not to.

Not to mention the side project, but
also if you're a solo founder and

most of the VC, you know even Y
combinator or won't even consider,

you know, so being a solo founder.

Michele: Oh, interesting.

Michael: That's a big point to bring up.

We have a lot of founders in the community
that are solo, and when you look at

funding so many places, they don't like
you just because you're by yourself.

Right.

And you might have like
the best business model.

You might be like super niche and
have something really great, but

they just won't even look at you
because they think you can't do

it because you a solo founder.

Whereas a calm funder, they
don't look at it, whether you're

solo or not, they look at what.

Michele: Yeah.

So, I guess, Michael, maybe we should talk
a little bit about your story as well.

So you were the founder of jungle bee.

Can you take us back to, to
where the idea for jungle became.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

So I grew up in the Caribbean
and, uh, In the island it's Saint

Martin, which is very, very busy,
lots of, lots of tours there.

And my family, they actually have
a tour and charter company there.

And so I kind of grew up in the
tour business and grew up on

boats, you know, working on boats.

And at some point in all of that, I
started selling tours online, you know,

to like tourists coming to Saint Martin.

So this was like a maybe 2015, 2014.

And so the websites, they weren't
great, not I talk like today.

And so that small little business that
I had did really, really well, it was

called Essex and deals, and I'd basically
make a commission on all the bookings

I was selling for these tour companies.

So I was operating as an agent and
somewhere along the line, I realized

it was really, really difficult
because as bookings came through

to, through my own website, right.

I would have to then collect the
money, but then also check of

each tour company, you know, if
the actually had space for my.

My guest didn't know
about this, but I did.

And you know, some of companies
are really professional and

they're answer you straight away.

And others are like pirates.

You know, they'll be on a tour day.

They'll go home.

They'll clean their boats.

And then they suddenly they're at the pub.

I mean, you can't reach
them until the next day.

And, um, it was very difficult
to handle reservations for tours.

And so that's kind of when the idea
of jungle became to me and the whole

point was to fix a problem that I had.

And a lot of the tour companies that
I spoke to also had their problem was

dealing with availability and receiving
bookings from local activitists and

agents or concierge desks at the hotels.

That's how I got started jungle bee.

So I kind of designed like the platform.

And so one thing you have to keep in
mind in all this, like I mentioned

was I used to work on boats, you
know, I dabbled on websites and stuff

like that, but I was not a developer.

I was on some island in the Caribbean.

I didn't know about
Silicon valley startups.

I didn't know anything about this stuff.

I wasn't even involved at all.

You know, you'd find me at the
beach, you know, working on

boats and things like that.

Right.

So it was, rather interesting.

And so I started to learn about,
you know, everything that goes

on and trying to raise money.

And I knew that jungle bee was going to be
a very difficult booking system to build.

It wasn't going to be a small little
app cause you're dealing with money

and availability and time zones and
schedules and just so many things.

And so I kind of did a mock up and I
went to all the different tour companies

that I knew that I worked with.

And with them, I was actually
able to raise $90,000.

Michele: Wow.

Michael: Um, yeah, we
didn't even build software.

I mean, there was no, there was no
safe, there wasn't a convertible note.

We kind of put together like this very
standard business equity contract for

common stock with all the shareholders.

And I found a dev shop in South
Africa that would help me.

So I did, I looked at a lot of dev
shops, you know, cause I wasn't

sure, I didn't know how to do this.

I didn't even know what technology to use.

You know, all I had was my little balsamic
mockup, and so with that money, I jumped

on a plane, went to South Africa and
we actually built the software and it

worked really, really all it came out.

This was just to give you a date.

This was in the beginning of 2017.

And then by I'd say it
was May or June 2017.

I was really excited.

We had actually launched v one
of our booking system in Saint

Martin as the first place.

And we were able to get all the hotels
and activity desks to use the software

and start booking all the different tour
companies, you know, on the islands.

And it worked really, really well.

So that's kind of how jungle bee
started, right at the beginning.

Michele: And so, I mean, you said
you were on an island in the middle

of the Caribbean, not a developer,
didn't know about the Silicon valley

tech world that Damon literally
lives in, uh, quite a contrast here.

So, you had this $90,000 in funding
from the community, basically.

So, how did you end up coming across calm?

And why did you end up taking them off?

Michael: Yeah.

So that's a really good question.

And that's where it
gets really interesting.

And why calm company fund, I think
is such a great model, because the

story it gets, um, it gets a bit crazy.

My story then, because
this was May or June 2017.

And I'm not sure if you guys remember,
but around September, October,

2017, the Caribbean, was devastated
by hurricanes Irma and Maria.

And so, the startup, we had
launched, well, I had launched

basically, you know, the community.

It did super well.

We were really excited.

We were really happy in September, I
mean, we were doing over a million dollars

in bookings worth in the marketplace.

It was just amazing.

And then suddenly one day
everything went, just crashed.

It just like it was all gone.

All my customers lost their boats.

All the other islands that we were set up
to go and launch it disappeared as well.

And so that's when things got very
interesting for me and my wife, Audrey.

We had to like kind of
survive at that point.

And so what I ended up doing is, I
ended up going to work back on boats.

So I used to work on
these big luxury yachts.

And I got a job, thanks
to a great friend of mine.

He got me on one of the
boats, as an engineer.

And so, I basically had a
side job plus the startup.

I didn't want to lose because
we had put so much into it.

And so, uh, for about a year,
almost a year and three months,

you know, throughout 2018.

The whole, you have 2018 up to the
beginning of 2019, I worked as an engineer

and with the salary I was earning, I
was able to hire some more developers

and keep building jungle bee has the
Caribbean market kind of came back to

normal, you know, slowly but surely.

So jungle bee was full-time, then
it became like a side hustle.

I just keeping it there going while
I was working full-time on the boats.

And then back in March, 2019, I believe.

Yeah.

I decided to like, know that such,
you know, I can only do both jobs so.

Because the jungle bee will be
software is demanding, you know,

and the customers and everything.

And so I kind of quit my job then.

And that's when the pressure started
to like, you know, come up very, very

quickly because I'm not a developer.

I can't build like in Ruby on
rails and react and all that.

So I couldn't just look off to my
software that I wanted to keep using.

And I had people like
running, you know, using it.

Back in that time, I'd moved to South
Africa because well, it's really cheap

and it's a good way, if you're going
to survive as a founder, it's really

beautiful there and it's super cheap.

So that was, um, that was
my, my objective in March.

And so I kind of hunkered down for two
months and started getting really stressed

and started looking at like different
investment models and things like that.

And.

Everything.

I had seen just like what Damon says,
you know, about, VC's needing you

to have a co-founder and then you need
to have, you know, X amount off MRR,

but you need to be growing or MRR by
like 200% per month, you know, and like

just going off all these crazy demands
was totally the opposite of what I'd

been in a jungle bee, but, you know.

I was building it to be honest
and, um, in a very calm way.

And I had survived a hurricane disaster.

So it was the opposite of
what people wanted to see.

And then, just like Damon as well.

I saw Tyler on a podcast and I
can't remember which website.

But everything you said made so much
sense, you know, about building a

company slowly, making sure that
your revenue is you hope higher

than, you know, your expenses.

And then just getting to
the point where you need to.

And then when you work with shareholders
and VCs and things like that,

they're actually there to help you.

You know, they don't have these
demands and you've got to have

to meet certain milestones.

You just got to keep the company going.

And which was something
that I found rather amazing.

And yeah, I just got,
super lucky to be honest.

I mean, I reached out to Tyler
back then it was just a little form

sent of a pitch deck and we started
chatting and one day he sent me an

email and he said, Hey man, you're in.

And I was like, oh my
gosh, that's unbelievable.

And from then on, the pressure
was all gone, you know.

Like then I could like actually, I
was really going to go full-time into

jungle because I was already looking
at, you know, finding another job.

And so from then I was full-time into
jungle bee and I was able to really

concentrate on our customers, what
they needed and really push the

software to where it needed to be.

Michele: I mean, that's incredible.

Like you literally had a hurricane
hit your business and destroy it.

Not metaphorically, like literally.

Michael: Yeah, all gone.

I've got some, the most amazing graphs
of, you know, bookings and revenue, and

you can just see like how high it goes.

And then suddenly it just does
like a, like a full vertical drop.

And then it's not just that,
but we also got hit by COVID.

It took us two years to recover from that.

And then in 2020, the beginning
of 2020, COVID happened, and the

exact same thing happened again.

So we went through like
two major disasters.

And, yeah, thanks to calm fund in
the community and everything that

we, you know, that they've provided.

We were actually able to survive
like a massive hurricane disaster.

We were able to survive the COVID
pandemic and we're still here.

Our competitors have crushed,
like they have no more money.

They had to close our companies,
everything, and we've just been able

to survive throughout all of that.

So we're like, we're definitely slow.

We're more like with like a
turtle, you know, slowly going

forward, but we're still there.

Michele: I think you're a cockroach,
like you're your unkillable.

Michael: Yeah, exactly.

can't going to go and get rid of us.

It is.

Michele: I mean, you know, it's
interesting you talking about that

because, I think sometimes a fear people
have about taking funding from anyone

is what happens if things hit the fan.

Right.

And like our revenues drop to zero.

Like, I mean, I've, I feel like that's
something that, that held me back for a

long time and going full time is like,
oh my God, what if, you know, what,

if a major company comes into this
space or like, there's this big change.

And like, all of a sudden our
business just disappears overnight.

And that was just like
me worrying about it.

But that, literally happened to you.

And so I'm curious, what was
that experience like for you.

Cause I guess I know people kind of,
sort of get worried that like their

investors would be pressuring them or, you
know, kind of turn their backs on them.

And so I'm curious how that
kind of dynamic played out.

Michael: Yeah.

Well, I mean, personally,
you know, you kind of, well,

you get really upset, right?

Especially if it happens twice in a row.

Come on, man.

How is that even possible?

You know, how do you get to
like major disaster happen in a

row, so you get sad, all that.

But from a point of view of, you know,
for the hurricanes, one thing, but

like when um, COVID happened and calm
fund was there, it was the opposite.

I actually felt okay.

Because when it started all going down
and I'd sent a message to, you know,

CB was head of platform at calm fund,
and then I'd sent a message to Tyler.

Both of them had reached up, and they
were like, hey, you know, just tell

us anything we can do to help you.

You know, this COVID will eventually
end, so you just got to survive

this and we're here to help
you just tell us what you need.

And the same thing
happened in the community.

I remember bunch of founders were
worried and things like that as well.

And, you know, we had a group, everybody
could speak and there was many, you

know, investors, which we call them
mentors because they, you know, they

actually do work, has blended work, but
they act as mentors in the community

and everyone was very, very supportive.

There was no, uh, no pressure whatsoever.

And since I've been in the community
since 2019, I've seen this happen a

lot of times, you know, whether it's a
disaster or actual, you know, competition

or just business, not working out for
some of the founders in the community.

And when things go wrong, so far
from what I've seen, you know, from

the company team, but also all the
mentors, everyone's just being super

supportive and like saying, you know,
sometimes it just doesn't work out.

That's totally fine.

You know, it's not, it's
not the end of the world.

It's just the way it is sometimes.

Right in business.

There's no pressure whatsoever at all.

I don't feel any pressure.

How about you Damon?

Damon: Yeah, for me, it's like,
uh, I took the money from Tyler

and then kind of disappear.

You know, we are all adults.

I mean, you know, we don't need anyone
to supervise us 24 7, and we know, we

are the founder, and we are in the best
position to know what we need to do.

But, the best part for having
the calm fund on the side is,

you know, as running business and
we will hit some lows for sure.

And a calm fund is the best community.

I would say.

You know, to give you a help, to
give a hand whenever I need any help.

So it's always there.

So that's also the reason why I accept
the temperature from Tyler, uh, is

because, you know, I'm a solo founder.

I just quit my job and I do
need a community, which I

can surround myself with.

And, uh, I don't really need, you
know, a community full of, you know,

those CEO's from those kinds of, you
know, NASDAQ listed public companies.

But what I really need is those funders
who are, no a few miles ahead of me

with a couple of million-dollar ARR
that I can really feel them, and I can

follow their steps, and I can get their
practical advisers and I can also get

really inspired from their journey.

And I'm hoping that one
day I can be one of them.

So that's, that's the biggest
reason that I, you know, joining

calm and I'm also feel very.

Michele: So you launched testimony on
December of 2020, when was it that you

ended up, taking the money from calm?

Damon: It was May, 2021 and I'll quit
my job at the end of the March 2021.

I quit my job.

I actually, you know, not only
building public on Twitter, but

I also quit in public on Twitter.

Yeah.

Uh, I made a, I posted a tweet say,
Hey, if I can reach a 1000 MRR, I'm

going to quit, quit my job in public.

And at the end of the March, I reached
my 1000 MRR ago, which means that I

have to quit my job because I promised.

Michele: Because you promise the internet.

Damon: Yes.

And, uh, a month up later,
I reached, uh, 2000 MRR.

And by the time, Gil reached
out to me uh, on Twitter and

saying, Hey, can we have a talk?

And then I'll have to talk with Tyler.

And then at the end of the April or early
may, and I got the temperature from Tyler.

So that happens with.

Michele: Did your boss
at Cisco see that tweet?

Damon: I'm pretty sure that he did it.

Michele: I'm curious.

So, you know, you mentioned, you know,
talking about with your wife and kind of

the decision to take this leave and she
had a full-time job and everything else,

what was that conversation like with your
wife when you said, like, when you got to

that decision of, if you get to a thousand
dollars a month, you can quit your job.

Damon: I would say not only for me
is a risk, but also for my wife.

it's also a big risk for her because she
will be the only one that contributes

in the financial wise to our family.

I would say she definitely got the
equivalent you call pressure as I do.

As I said, you know, I can foresee
what is the worst case for our family,

which is, you know, we lost 200,000
salary you know, one year salary.

And , for my wife, it's definitely
better that if she can see some moment

and from a business, and I think
1000 MRR, 2000 MRR is definitely a

early sign that she will get a little
bit of confidence, for what I do.

And of course, nothing is, no risk.

Right?

So if I do anything, you know,
there's always some, some risk there,

but it's always a balance between
the freedom and the financial wise.

So for me, if I quit my job, I got all the
freedom except for the financial freedom.

So that's the goal that I'm going after.

You know, if I still keep my
job and, uh, you know, the

financial stability for sure.

But, uh, you know, in the meantime
I lose the freedom to take care

of my young kids and also this
kind of, you know, daily update.

I have to update my boss, you know, what I
did in the past day, you know, whatsoever.

So that's kind of like
a mental torture for me.

So, you know, working for tech
companies like Cisco, there, there

will be a lot of trivial stuff.

And, uh, you know, it's just, I know
it's just a matter of time to get

them finished, but it's a boring job.

And not to mention, I work there
for eight years and things started

to get really boring to me.

And, uh, I would say it's a
mental torture for to updates my

progress every day, every week.

And, I would say it's always a balance.

If I choose to stay full time, you
know , I will have the financial

stability, if I choose to quit my
job, and I will have the freedom, but,

uh, you know, it will take some time
to regain our financial stability.

Michele: So I just realized something.

So while you were building testimonial,
you were on leave from Cisco.

So were you also taking care
of your daughter at that

Damon: Yes.

Yes.

I will say when I did decide to
take the leave, taking care of my

daughter was the highest priority.

And I never imagined that our
launch testimonial one, I, and

not to mention that I would
make money out of a testimonial.

And it's just a surprise for me.

I would say it's a surprise to
me because I never validated

the testimonial one idea.

Cause I think that I
can reuse a lot of code.

I can quickly build the MVP within a week.

I launch it, I directly launch it,
after the MVP is done, the next

day I launched it on product hunt.

And then, you know, because back
then there was some lifetime deal

and I sold 10 or 20 copies of the
lifetime deal, which brings me 5,000

revenue within the first two weeks.

And, uh, that was kinda.

To me, to be honest.

Michele: So I'm curious, like
I was incredible journey.

Like what did your day actually look like?

Cause you were effectively, I mean
sort of effectively a stay-at-home

parent with a side project.

So like, what did your
daily schedule look like?

And like when did you find
time to work on testimony?

Damon: I would say, most of the time
during the day was just playing around

with my daughter, reading books and
playing Lego with this kind of stuff.

And I only worked for
testimonial during her nap time.

And, during the evening
time after she went to bed.

Michele: That sounds a lot.

Like my weekends when the
early days of geocodio.

Damon: Even worse, I would say, you know,
right before I launched testimonial on

product hunt, my wife got sick and we
have no clue if she got COVID or not.

And she, I told her that, you know,
you just, stay in the bedroom and, uh,

you know, you know, don't come out.

And, uh, you know, she scheduled some
COVID test three days later, because

back then the schedule was pretty busy.

And, you know, she stays 24 7 in
the bedroom and I'm the only one,

you know, taking care of the kid,
cooking food, and this kind of stuff.

So during the testimonial
launch, I'm super busy.

Uh, I only got time to
work on testimonial, you

know, when, when my kid is.

Michele: I mean, so you were
under a lot of pressure when

you were launching testimonial.

Damon: Uh, less I, make
some money, from the launch.

Michele: Yeah.

Yeah, there was there, there was high.

Damon: I would say the, uh, stripe
notification is the thing about,

you know, energized me during
the first few launch days.

Michele: Yeah, yeah.

I can see that.

Michael, I'm curious.

I mean, so your, your journey was
also, I mean, growing fast and then

hit by a hurricane, went back to
working on boats for a year and a half.

How did as a side project um,
move to South Africa, like, what

were the conversations with your
wife like during all of that?

Michael: At that point, she had
kind of given up on, like what's

going to happen next, at that point.

Because, there's more of the story.

Like even at one point off to Africa,
just before COVID, we had decided,

I had decided, and obviously I spoke
to her about, and she's always, she

always says yes to everything at
the end of the day, to be honest.

So it's pretty cool.

I said like, hey, we
need to go to Costa Rica.

We need to go to the
different Caribbean islands.

I'm going to sell jungle bee will
be a software directly to the tour

operators and go and speak to them,
learn from them and make it happen.

Yeah, I just told her
and she was like, yeah.

Okay.

For sure.

She loves it.

The more we travel, the more
we do crazy things the better.

Obviously at one point they did
get kind of tiring, you know,

one point it was no one morning.

I remember she woke up and was like,
hey, can you go and get those amazing

croissants for me at the bakery.

And I was like, well, darling, um, the
problem is that was two islands ago.

We're not even in that country anymore.

Cause we, we had been moving so much.

Yeah, it was, um, it was
definitely interesting.

Cause you just didn't know really
where, where you were going to be.

And you know, we didn't have
like a permanent address.

We were moving along.

But throughout that whole point.

I mean, throughout the whole,
you know, from the beginning

to the end, it was fine.

We've always been very
aligned on everything.

It's very easy.

Michele: Wow.

I mean, I get the sense of, for both of
you, I mean, given sort of how kind of

tumultuous things were in the beginning of
your companies that like, kind of finding

out that something like calm existed, that
you didn't have to be on that, you know,

2000 or 200% monthly growth rate track,
kind of like gave you a sense of relief.

Michael: Definitely.

Damon: Oh, sure.

I mean, I always believed that the
biggest pressure should not be external.

I mean, we, as the founder, we should
have our own motivation to drive

the revenue, to grow either like a
rocket ship or at least grow steadily.

So it's not really the money can solve the
growth problem, is always the founder who

need to, you know, keep our own business.

Michael: Yeah.

Also, I'd like to add, like, for
example, before I joined, um, calm

fund, I was not really part of like the
whole, you know, tech community, actual

important, tech community me at all.

And, um, so when you like, you
know, building software, right.

And you'd doing a startup because you
know, you're doing a startup, obviously.

It gets really difficult to make decisions
you've got, you don't know what you're

doing, whether it's right, whether
it's wrong and not only that, but you

don't know who to bounce concepts or
ideas or for it to even know if you're.

If what you're doing is actually
realistic or not at all.

And, that was a big relief.

So when I joined calm fund, I was
able to just to speak to anybody or

bounce ideas off Tyler or CB, or,
you know, one of the mentors that are

more specialized in what I'm kind of
doing, you know, one of the problems.

And that kind of helped a lot because
then you know that when you speak to

somebody like that, that actually, you
know, they've got experience and then

you look at your own company and you
can say, okay, well, this is might not

be perfect, but I'm definitely going
in the right direction versus before.

You could be going completely the
wrong way and you won't even know

about it until it's too late.

That was, um, that was a big relief.

Michele: Yeah.

I mean, I can really see that because
you, you are not coming from a tech

or a product background at all right.

Like you were working on boats and
tourism, which is incredibly helpful

for your business in terms of subject
matter expertise, but in terms of

how digital, you know, products
and software work not as much.

And I think some of these things
as a founder, like it's difficult

sometimes because yes, you know,
there's an amount of build in public.

And I guess I'm curious your
take on this Damon, but like

sometimes you're also like, is this
something I can admit to in public?

What will people think of
me if I ask this question?

Or like, can I, can I share this
or can I ask this in public?

And so sometimes it's nice to have a
small community of people who are both

in your situation and then also people
who are kind of at further stages down

the line to bounce something off of.

But Damon, I'm kind of curious
how you think about that.

Cause you're a big I mean
you quit in public, right?

So you're a big build in public person
and kind of have been doing that,

you know, from the very beginning.

Damon: I will say building
public journey is also a surprise

to me because as I mentioned.

The first, thing that I launched
is a community, which means that

I have to be the biggest champion.

I have to keep posting
the videos to lonely dev.

I have to connect people outside
but lonely dev and to drag

it back uh, to our community.

So that became the beginning, of
I, you know restarted my twitter

because I sat off twitter when
I first moved to this states.

And I'm in states days to
pursue my graduate degree.

And then I signed up, but I never used.

And, uh, and after I start building
my side hustle, I have to be, be like

an extrovert or something like that.

And I have to keep, you know,
posting the product updates.

And I think it's like that,
and that become the beginning

of my building public journey.

And after I built several products
and I just ah, you know, to, to tweet

a thread and just summarize what I've
done in 2020, and I, I made a thread

like, um, you know, these are the
apps that I shipped in 2020, and you

know, most, all of them generates $0.

I haven't run there only one generous
several thousand within a few days.

So my whole point is that, you
know, keep building and to be

patient and that's the whole point.

And that became, you know, at
the beginning of everything.

And uh, yeah, I'm pretty
much share everything.

A except for, uh, calm and that we do
have a slack private structure, which

is called 5k Twitter, Twitter, 5k,
community, and, uh, you know, the Kenneth

castle and the founder of, uh, sleep
and, uh, the founder fan pointer, GG.

And I said, noah brag.

I was invited by noah brag back then.

You know, we, we are all, you know, on
Twitter with several thousand followers on

Twitter, but not reach 5,000 and our goal.

You know, for the private communities, you
know, we have to reach 5,000 followers on

Twitter and that's why the name come from.

And, uh, for some, you
know, trivial stuff.

And we were sure within
the private committee.

Michele: Yeah.

Communities is really, really important.

So I just have one more question, you
know, if you're kind of thinking back

to yourself or, you know, from your
own experience, I'm curious, like, if

you knew of somebody else with a job
who had a side project that they wish

they could go full time on, and they're
considering taking funding from calm,

what do you think they should know?

Damon: I think you gotta be
prepared and you gotta know that

what is the road blocker for you
about why not quitting our job?

Is it that, you know, you didn't see
the initial sign of the product market

fit or you just need you know tens of
thousand as the, you know extra financial

cushion for you to quit your job.

And, for me, I mean, personally, I think
I'm, well-prepared before quitting my job.

And, uh, you know, I got the
financial support and also the,

you know, the mental support from.

my wife and we do have savings.

And having a community, we should
follow, you know, indie, hacker uh,

founders is the thing that I really want.

That's why I took the funding from calm.

And, uh, you know, if you are hesitating
had any you know, whether or not

you should quit a job if, you know,
money is the thing that, troubling

you and you just take the money.

And you know, it become nearly
no risk for you because you got

the money and moreover you have a
much bigger opportunity to make a

much bigger impact to your personal
life or your, your family life.

Yeah, for me, I think the only
suggestion is that, you know, you got

to know what is the thing that blocks
you from really quitting our job?

You know, I mean, if it
is money, take the money.

If it is, you just don't have the
competence in product just to compute it.

You know, as a side hustle and once
you see the initial product market is

already assigned and you want to have
a much quicker, growth rate, then take

the money to fuel your business and, um.

Michele: Yeah.

It's, you know, And I think something
that really led us to invest in it

is that I think, you know, thinking
back to when it was a side project for

us you know, I remember, I remember
learning a bit about venture capital and

learning very quickly that a business
like ours was basically uninvestible.

Cause it was not rocket ship growth, you
know, it's like, it's weird nobody's,

right, in the tech world, you know.

And, you know, it was already
profitable, which is a bad

thing, um, in a lot of cases.

Right?

Who knows how things are, you know,
today with, with everything crashing.

And so I always just considered
our business just sort of like

uninvestible, but from what I had
read from some of the bigger VCs

and never even considered it, but.

You know, we got to this point where
there really was a lot of pressure

for us on running the business and
having two full-time jobs and only

having that nights and weekends and
nap time to work on it as you to Damon.

And when I found out about
it, I was like, you know what?

This would have been so helpful for
us when we were at that point of

like, this is just not quite enough
there to feel really, really confident

about one of us going full-time
or both of us going full time.

You could probably get there, but like
this, this is something that would

have been really attractive and also.

Helpful to us, not just because the
funding, but also, you know, sort of how

the funding works and, you know, I see
just people go on calms website and just,

you know, read about the agreement, which
is called a seal th that Tyler created

for it, but it was, I think kind of
important for us to sort of pay it forward

in a way to try to help people who were,

you know, or we are in a similar situation
as us and just relieve some of that kind

of pressure and stress in their life
from trying to make a business work you

know, from the ground up without any,
you know, major support behind you.

Michael: Yeah.

I'd like to add, um, just another
thing as well, you know, for, I mean,

I think this is really important for
any founder that is considering taking

investment from calm fund, what they
need to know is at the calm company

fund, there is a lot of investment
that goes into community and putting

together documentation and getting a lot
of help in place to help the founders.

And what's interesting, as well, I at calm
fund, I don't know if it's like this at

other funds, but at calm fund, we kind
of operate in a way like a bootstrap sort

of startup and what that means right.

Is, and not everybody sees us,
but I do because I help out the

actual calm fund team all the
time is our team is completely

focused on helping the founders.

And whether that means like
spinning up new projects, you know?

So we've had CB who was putting together,
you know, artificial boards, you know,

so I don't know, they have a special
term for that, but basically you bring

in, you know, board members, you do
found the companies that don't have

board rights, but they're there to help.

We've got all kinds of experiments
going on all the time, you know, in some

work and some don't work, but what's
interesting is we constantly invest and

innovate into helping founders, whether
it be resource docs, knowledge, whether

it's like many groups, like masterminds.

We even, I have this internal platform
called HQ, which is absolutely amazing.

It's a full directory of the founders,
the members anything that a, a founder,

any problem that a founder runs into,
or even our mentors, as well, when

they run into problems, you know,
those issues are like documented.

And then we have, you know, someone
that does an amazing job at writing

articles about it, so that when
that problem happens to you, all the

knowledge, like the collective knowledge
of the entire community is not lost.

It's right there in our internal platform
for any founder or mentor to go and get.

And I think that's, there's
a lot of value in that.

Michele: Yeah.

Michael: you know, investing
there's, there's more.

Michele: Yeah.

I mean, I've, participated in that
myself, which is really interesting

as an investor because in a lot of
funds, I get the sense that there's

kind of an you know, a bit of distance
between the LPs and the, those are the

investors, you know, the partners and
the associates running the fund, and then

the companies themselves, like there's
not too much interaction between them.

And with calm, there's a lot of
interaction like mentored a founder's

summit group myself and was also
on one of the calm advisory boards.

And of course we're all in
slack and accessible as well.

There was a base camp for a while too,
and it's always, I remember seeing

sort of a luminary of our world.

Just jumping in and
commenting I'm on a thread.

And it was like, whoa, I have a
emailed from this person, I've only

seen up on stage at micro con f, as a
keynote, um, in my email, this is okay.

Like, um, you know, because of calm fund.

Because people have access to people
who really know they're talking about.

Michael: Yeah, exactly.

And it's great.

You see the value everyday, you know,
with the founders in the community.

that they get.

Michele: Well, I think that's about
going to wrap us up for today.

Thank you so much for coming by
today and thank you to calm fund

for sponsoring this episode today.

Michael, Damon, if people want
to hear more about you and your

businesses, where should they.

Michael: Find me on Twitter, I guess.

That's that works.

Or sign up to my software,
if they have a tour company.

Damon: Yes, I'm here.

Yeah, my, uh, my Twitter handle is,
uh, Damon Chen, D a N E N G C H E N.

Cause I couldn't get the real Damon
Chen, but a D M E N G a is the Chinese

pronunciation of the English Damon.

So I just choose the Chinese
pronounciation as my twitter handle.

And if you are running a business
and you want to get the, uh, the

sort of proof for a business and
the checkout test one to go to you.

Michele: Awesome.

And if folks want more about calm fund.

You can go to calm fund.com, there,
you can see more about the approach of

the fund, the philosophy that Damon and
Michael mentioned that Tyler Tringas,

the founder of calm fund, shared on
indie hackers, more about investing,

as well as, about the community.

Thank you guys for.

Michael: Thanks for
having this was awesome.