Michele Hansen (00:01.175)
Hey Colleen!

Colleen (00:02.465)
Hey Michelle!

Michele Hansen (00:04.078)
How's it going?

Colleen (00:05.491)
I am doing well. How are you?

Michele Hansen (00:09.238)
In all honesty, it's been like, it's been a busy day. Like, do you ever have days where you are busy the whole day, but somehow got none of the things done that you wanted to get done that day?

Colleen (00:22.157)
That's the worst. I do not like that.

Michele Hansen (00:25.134)
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like a bad day, right? It was just, well, also I didn't start until 11 because I went to the gym. that kind of, I don't know. Yeah, so I, and then I just sort of make it up like later in the day, right? But like, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know. No, I think actually, mean, we are hiring engineers right now and I like,

Colleen (00:29.261)
Yeah.

Colleen (00:36.397)
but it is 8.30 at night, so you still worked a nine and a half hour day, just to say.

Colleen (00:52.909)
Mm-hmm.

Michele Hansen (00:53.87)
We had a couple of calls today that were all really good, but I just don't plan in the time to debrief afterwards. Do know what I mean? It takes up so much more time than the half hour or whatever, right? And then there's 15, 20 minutes of prep time, and then there's a debrief afterwards. And then I also had a call with a potential customer, and that was 15, 20 minutes of prep time beforehand, and then a half an hour of making a pretty proposal and everything.

Colleen (01:03.009)
Yeah, yes.

Colleen (01:24.236)
Absolutely.

Michele Hansen (01:24.298)
which I'm addicted to doing with Claude, by the way. Do you do that? I feted our design system and then I made a skill for Geocodeo Design and now it makes me these beautiful PDFs that are so much nicer than the very plain Google Doc one-pagers or God forbid just a plain email that I used to send people.

Colleen (01:27.489)
We all are. It's not just you. Yes.

Colleen (01:49.323)
Yeah, it's amazing.

Michele Hansen (01:51.766)
that actually, so like that reminds me. So last week I made like a sort of like an agent skills repo, you know, for like for Geocodeo with a with a bunch of those different things so that we can all use them. And there was something we were talking about last time, and this is like it's not an AI podcast. We'll talk about other things. But like. Is everything an AI podcast now, honestly, like?

Colleen (02:01.154)
Yes.

Colleen (02:12.311)
I mean, it could be an AM podcast, but go ahead. Everyone, okay, can I just tell you, I was traveling. I was on vacation two days ago. I'm at the pool in Austin, Texas, and like the bachelorettes are like in the pool getting hit on by the drunk bachelors. And I am not even kidding you, they were talking about AI. Like it's...

Michele Hansen (02:33.601)
Were they hitting on women about AI? Be like, hey girl, I'll get you a Claude Max subscription.

Colleen (02:37.195)
Yes! It was the most of-

It wasn't quite that spectacular, but it was still pretty good. I wish I had recorded it.

Michele Hansen (02:46.059)
That would be amazing. Be like, hey girl, I have Claude Code running in 10 tabs in my terminal right now.

I've got three max subscriptions. my god. that would be like the worst AI pickup lines, which is like when you hear AI pickup lines, you think like it's AI making the pickup lines, not using AI as the pickup line.

Colleen (02:59.404)
haha

Colleen (03:09.845)
AI.

Michele Hansen (03:13.229)
Flexing about your clawed subscriptions. Dude, okay, well, so I was in New York over the weekend visiting a friend of mine from growing up. We ended up talking about AI. Like, she works in fashion retail. Like, and then we were visiting friends in DC a couple months ago. And I feel like every conversation turned to AI. And it's like, not because I'm some like hardcore AI person, right? Like,

Let me remind you that my book was in the LibGen stolen database of books that Meta and OpenAI used for training data. I was very reflexively against a lot of this until May of last year, until I got over how wounded I felt about that. And also because the models got a lot better. But like...

I am not a hardcore AI proponent by any means and I'm not bringing it up all the time. It surprises me how often it's coming up with people who are not software people in a way that it didn't before Christmas, I feel like.

Colleen (04:27.423)
honestly think this is because everyone is worried they're going to lose their jobs.

Michele Hansen (04:33.675)
I think that's part of it. I guess there's people who were there losing their jobs, but then now people who are in management positions are getting an AI mandate from the top. And now they're like, you have to use AI, have to your team use it, you have to teach everybody else how to use it. they're like, but people don't know what they're doing. How do we make sure that what they're getting out of it is good?

Colleen (04:36.235)
I think that's big part of it.

Colleen (04:50.722)
Yes.

Michele Hansen (05:03.693)
and how do we build good guardrails around it? I feel like there aren't really good...

Like there's no best practices right now about using AI. It's moving so fast. mean, so Matthias is giving a talk in Sweden tomorrow on Chief, which if everybody listening to this has not tried Chief, you should go try Chief. And he first gave the talk in January. I think he realized early, this will be the fourth time he gives this talk. And he's given it on two continents as well. And he's like,

Colleen (05:39.263)
Nice.

Michele Hansen (05:41.267)
Every single time I have given this talk, I have had to rewrite it because stuff has changed in like the like three or four weeks between when I gave it. Which is just wild.

Colleen (05:50.572)
Yeah. Yeah. It's wild how quickly it's moving. Yeah, it's crazy. yeah, I may be doing, I got a request to do a workshop, so I may be doing a private workshop, teaching, but it's, but it's interesting because you think about like, what kind of content am I going to put together? Like, what are the best practices? We have best practices like today, but in three weeks, it's going to be different.

Michele Hansen (06:18.989)
I think the best practice is learning how to adapt.

Colleen (06:21.783)
I think you're right. think you're absolutely right. think that's why another reason I think everyone, your friend in the fashion industry, the frat boys at the pool, we're talking about AI because you, you have to be able to adapt, right? And you have to be open to exploring it, in order to say, stay relevant.

Michele Hansen (06:42.733)
But I think there is, at the same time, if we were to draw a line for today, I think something I did want to talk about that we talked about last time and is something that we think a lot about at Geocodeo is how do we put guardrails around it so that the way we're using it, it's following existing code patterns or it's doing more of what we want it to do the first time.

Because, I mean, as we've talked about, like, you know, the coding time has gone to like almost zero, right? And now a lot of that, there's scoping time and there's like so much more of it is QA time. And so, and that's how you sort of reduce the QA time is by giving it, you know, giving it boundaries. But I wanted to sort of throw this question to you, like,

Colleen (07:18.391)
Mm-hmm.

Michele Hansen (07:38.241)
But when we talk about that, what actually are we talking about when we talk about having shared AI tooling and giving it boundaries? What specifically do we mean?

Colleen (07:52.142)
I think that's a great question. And I'm kind of obsessed with this, the Stripe AI minions. Like this article came out a couple of weeks ago. I don't know if we talked about it, but I heard about it on a podcast this morning. Claire Vaux's How I AI podcast was talking about it. And I'm really like, I really am fascinated in the way that big companies are doing that. Because I think when you have a small organization, you, it's easy to share content, easier to share context, right? Like for your ex.

organization, for example, you built out a repo for all of your marketing actions and you know you have a small enough group of people that all those people can access that pretty easily. But when you have an organization the size of Stripe that has hundreds and hundreds of best practice documents, I think it's really interesting to think about how do we give all of those documents the correct context so that our engineers are all following the same AI rules.

Michele Hansen (08:49.045)
Yeah, like, and I guess what you know, what are specific things, I guess that people can be doing so I like I mentioned that you know that we have this like agent skills repo where there's shared skills across the organization.

Colleen (09:05.165)
I think, okay, so yes, shared skills across the organization. think shared skills like in terms of coding, know, coding best practices and coding standards, but it's weird because now all of this documentation lives in MD files and we're not used to thinking like that. So I think that's like looking at a organization. Well, I mean, I can tell you, so in some organizations like yours, maybe that has many different repositories,

What I have done personally is I have everything in one folder and then I put all of the informational file or all the information in that top level folder. So every single repo can access those MD files for best practices and coding practices. But also I think like one thing that's really interesting is you should build out a set of hooks. So if I'm in Cloud Code and I'm working on the repo,

when I exit that there should auto write somewhere what we learned, right? Like I made this so much in engineering is decision-making, right? Design decision-making. We are always making design decisions and we are never documenting them. So this is funny because I have a friend, we were gonna start a little business to solve this problem. This was like a year ago, but he was like really frustrated with this problem. Engineers are terrible about documenting why they make decisions and then they forget and then...

This is like the joke, right? Like, I get blamed myself. So I just feel like documenting design decisions is so important.

Michele Hansen (10:39.499)
And so you have like a little file where it saves off your design decisions from your conversations.

Colleen (10:42.613)
Yeah, says, yeah, exactly. So it's like, why did we make this decision? But what I haven't set up yet, which I want to set up is it, it doesn't do it automatically yet. Right? So I think I need to, next thing I need to do is like write a hook. So every time I exit Claude code, it's going to be like, Oh, here are the design decisions we made during this session. I'm going to write those to my design decision file.

Michele Hansen (11:04.203)
And I guess do you have that like?

as part of like, like, do you have some sort of like a template you're using when you create PRDs that it's like explicitly asking that as part of the step or is it just, is it extrapolating what those design decisions were? And then are you validating that it's, it's articulation of the design decision that you made is correct?

Colleen (11:31.959)
Are you validating that you're taking? So you're basically asking me.

Michele Hansen (11:34.21)
Yeah, guess what does the process actually look like, right? Like, are you sitting there saying, OK, here's the design decisions I made, or is it part of your scoping process? Like, when you're in plan mode, or when you're making a PRD, do you have a skill in there that is basically asking you to define what those decisions are? Or are you having Claude extrapolate what the decisions made were for you, and then those are what's going

off and then you're sort of like checking those that yes that is the decision I made and the reason why because I find that when I have it do this it doesn't like it's kind of like hit or miss like 50-50 yeah

Colleen (12:17.197)
Whether it works. Yeah. So what I'm doing now and like process improvement, I'm sure could happen here is what I do now is I write all the design decisions like manually, like every time we make a decision, I'm like, Hey, write that to my read me. Like, don't forget, write that too. I tell it because I know, cause it especially like, can think of something as a little more complicated. That's a matter, a better example. So I set up open claw and then I set up open claw for a bunch of different people.

Michele Hansen (12:30.367)
Okay, you tell you tell it that you made a decision. Okay.

Michele Hansen (12:42.285)
Still terrifies me, by the way.

Colleen (12:43.725)
So I set it up for a bunch of different people and there's a lot of like weirdness and open claw. It's kind of messy. Everyone has a different workflow, so there's like difference for different customers. So every time I make a design decision, like we are going to use Docker because I am going, so I like Sim link my files to Dropbox. So like every time I do something like that, I'm like right into the read me.

that I had chose to symlink my files to Dropbox so you can never change openclaw.json on the Hetzner server. And then when I go to add new features, but I do have to frequently remind it to check the readme and it will tell me things that are wrong. And I will have to be like, that's wrong, Claude, go read the readme. So I don't have a great process where it's right 100 % of the time.

Michele Hansen (13:34.606)
Yeah, I love that sort of how Claude will be like, oh, you're totally right. I forgot to do that. I was working on something the other day. And part of my instructions were, you may read from this set of folders, but you cannot write to them. You can only write to this specific folder. And then I was having it wrap everything up. And I was like, great. Summarize what we did. And it's like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, and change this, this, and this file. And I was like, Claude?

Colleen (14:02.029)
Hahahaha! No-holly!

Michele Hansen (14:03.209)
I specifically told you that you could only read from files in other folders. You may not write to them and then you just said you were going to write to them and it's like, you're absolutely right. Let me just undo that. I was like, yeah, go do that. Go do that now. Don't touch my files. You did not have permission to. Pause off.

Colleen (14:23.051)
The most, I know, right? Like I think the most interesting thing about this, and I think everyone is struggling with this is processes and these like non-deterministic outputs, right? Like we're not even like setting up multiple open clause for people. It will not do the same thing every time despite my heavy documentation in the readme. So I think, I mean, I think this is like the big challenge we're gonna be facing over the next year plus.

Michele Hansen (14:47.101)
Yeah. I mean, I was working on something a couple of weeks ago, and I used Chief to basically do something 45 times. And it had very specific instructions for what it was supposed to do. And then I was like, OK, and then if we're doing Ralph loops, then it's going to like, it's not going to, we're not going to have the context window problems, right? And it's going to be the same quality each time.

And no, it just made some random decisions for some of them that were not following the PRT. was like, why? Why? I mean, it really is like working with a really, really smart intern who

Colleen (15:20.13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michele Hansen (15:31.308)
doesn't really have any real world experience and you kind of and you have to give them like very specific instructions and then you have to check everything that they do to make sure that they follow those instructions. And I was talking to someone the other day about this and actually they were saying they're saying how like their junior team members really struggle with how to prompt.

And I was like, I think it's because they've never had an intern themselves. Like, they've been the intern, but they haven't been that, you know. And like I did a lot of internships, too. Like, there's no shade on interns, right? Like, that's a like, can you tell how many like cannot tell you how many mail merges I screwed up like as an intern? OK, like I made the dumb intern mistakes and had to have somebody check them. And then there might have been once when somebody didn't check them and then a whole bunch of

Colleen (16:01.516)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (16:25.367)
high school seniors in my state representative's district got congratulations on graduation, physical male that had the wrong last name. Yeah, that was not great. Always check your intern's work because your intern might have been me, okay? Your Claude intern might have been me, right? It's like, Michelle, did you remember to like expand the columns? know, exactly like talking to Claude.

Colleen (16:30.345)
emails.

Colleen (16:38.455)
That's not great. That's not great.

Michele Hansen (16:55.021)
Yeah, think this is the big thing that there's like the tooling piece of it, right? You can make sure that everybody is kind of like working within boundaries, right? Like, I don't know if I said this last time, but it's kind of like when you go bowling with kids and they have like the little rubber barriers for the side, right? Like kind of putting some safeties in there, but you still have to know.

Like you still have to have more context than that, right? Like you still have to know how to steer it. And I think that's the really hard thing to teach people, like especially like junior team members who maybe don't have as much business or like industry or like subject matter context. They haven't been in their job as much. And I'm really wondering how...

Colleen (17:24.267)
Yes. Yes.

Michele Hansen (17:47.126)
you can teach them that, aside from making them do it the old fashioned hammer and chisel way that we did, regardless of what the subject matter is, whether it's coding or business decision making.

Colleen (17:58.178)
Yeah, I actually.

Yeah.

Colleen (18:05.429)
Yeah, think especially, mean, I think it's almost, here's the problem. Now I'm, now I'm reflecting on all the things I have built with Claude as my helper and my extensive experience as a developer and a human and a SaaS founder, you know, for 20 years before Claude entered my life makes a huge difference. I also was working with someone recently who didn't have a lot of experience prompting.

It feels like really, I don't want say dangerous, but it's, it's really a problem. Like, you know, and how do you solve it? Cause cause guard rails. mean, sure. You could have, you can have files in there to help Claude, like here are our best practices and here's our linter. And you can have all that stuff, but there's so to your point, there's so much context and so much nuance that you just have for having done this for a long time that I think, I mean, I worry, I honestly, this sounds so dramatic, but like I worry about the future of education.

Like I really do. Like I worry about the future of coding and education and all this stuff because I don't know how else you get that.

Michele Hansen (19:14.253)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, think it's a really scary time for kids who are just coming, you know, who are in school right now or are just coming into the job market. it's probably really uplifting for everybody out there, you know, who has, like, you know, a 21, 22-year-old kid. I would be curious to hear from people, actually, like, if you do have a 21, 22, 23-year-old or you are a 21, 22, 23-year-old.

Colleen (19:30.443)
Okay, yeah, I feel like we should change the topic.

Michele Hansen (19:44.558)
I think there's more people who are parents of those people that listening. Like, how are you preparing your kids for this? How are they preparing for it? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think guardrails are only gonna get you so far if people already have the necessary subject matter experience.

Colleen (20:09.709)
I totally agree. And even like thinking of your context, like I believe you're hiring, I don't know if they're entry level engineers, but like, maybe I'm wrong. Okay, I'm in level, nevermind then. But like if you're hiring entry level engineers, do you not let them use AI so they get, they understand like how code and deployment works?

Michele Hansen (20:17.139)
mid-level. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (20:27.233)
See, yeah, I don't... I've...

I feel like that's not an option at this point, right?

Colleen (20:34.859)
No, because they'd be too slow. They'd be so slow that you'd have to be incredibly committed to like, I just, don't know. But on the other hand, it's like if you start to drive and you just get in a Tesla and you let it drive you everywhere, you're never gonna learn. So what do you do? I don't know the answer. But I do think it's a tricky problem.

Michele Hansen (20:37.193)
Right, yeah.

Michele Hansen (20:56.781)
And this is the podcast you listen to for answers. So you're welcome, everyone. No, it's really hard.

Colleen (21:04.039)
Hahaha

Michele Hansen (21:09.025)
But yeah, because I saw someone saying that your 1x engineer with AI is maybe a 0.8x engineer with AI. It's going to slow them down. But then your 10x engineer is now a 100x engineer, especially the people who are the builders who just love creating things rather than the craftsmen.

Colleen (21:26.864)
Right, right, right.

Colleen (21:36.439)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (21:38.453)
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, we can talk about something besides AI. Can we? Are we allowed to? Is that allowed these days?

Colleen (21:40.276)
What was I going to say?

yeah, let's talk. can do, we can do whatever we want. Yes, we can. Yes, we can.

Michele Hansen (21:52.513)
But what do you have going on that's not AI?

Colleen (21:53.678)
But what I mean, that's, that's all I have going on. That is my mind. A hundred percent of the time is AI, AI consulting AI and businesses. Yeah. That's all I think about.

Michele Hansen (22:06.157)
Can I tell you, so when I was flying to New York last week, was like, you know, I was going to visit a friend and so was like, you know what, I can work on the plane all day on Thursday, work from home with her on Friday, and then I fly back Sunday night. So I basically don't miss any work, great. Not that I have this boss over me who's counting my vacation days or anything, right? No, but it's like, just don't want, I don't want to get behind, and I was also sick for a whole month. Did I tell you that, by the way?

Colleen (22:16.525)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Colleen (22:26.797)
Your boss is such a jerk. What's her name?

Colleen (22:34.601)
No, that's awful!

Michele Hansen (22:35.497)
I was sick for a whole month. Yeah, I had bronchitis and then it rolled right into like the world's worst cold and then I got a sinus infection. yeah, it was great. Anyway, yeah, but like everybody around here has been sick like that too. Like it's just, it's terrible. Yeah, but thank God for antibiotics. So...

Colleen (22:38.442)
my gosh.

Colleen (22:43.013)
Ugh. I'm sorry. That's awful.

Michele Hansen (22:57.099)
I was like, I'm gonna just work all day on Thursday on the plane. And I just had all these dreams of like me and Claude, you know, just hanging out for eight hours, no meetings, you know, of course, playing Wi-Fi isn't amazing, but like, we were on a flight a couple months ago and like, Matthias just had like Claude running the whole time and like, and like,

Colleen (23:10.049)
Yes, I love working on the plane. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (23:18.453)
It's somehow not as slow as other things. I've been in situations where like, Claude would load and run perfectly fine and then LinkedIn won't load and I'm like, what is going on here? Yeah, I found out like five minutes before I was boarding that there was no wifi on the plane. Yeah, yeah, so all of my...

Colleen (23:28.106)
I'm what is happening?

Colleen (23:33.421)
sad. I don't like that for you. All of your big dreams were crushed.

Michele Hansen (23:38.483)
my my flight with Claude dreams. My my my Claude in the clouds dreams were all crushed. Claude in the clouds. Yeah. Okay.

Colleen (23:45.677)
Clawed in the clouds. I have something a little bit fun. I have hired a sales coach.

Michele Hansen (23:53.838)
interesting. So the marketing coach hires a sales coach.

Colleen (23:55.543)
So, I'll report back.

Okay, so here's the funniest thing. I, it's literally the same thing I do. So like, okay, let me explain this because when I am coaching someone, it's not about me. I don't get to talk about me. Right? So like, if I'm coaching you, you are talking 80 % of our coaching call. There is something about, right? So

Michele Hansen (24:08.225)
then why did you hire them?

Michele Hansen (24:16.267)
Right?

Michele Hansen (24:21.195)
I'm talking 80 % of the call anyway.

you

Colleen (24:27.383)
There is, if you hired me, like as a coach, my focus is on you and your business, right? It's not, Obviously like who's your ICP? Let's define your ICP. How do we reach them? What's our go-to-market strategy? Like, are we doing this? Are we doing that? So it's just, so basically the sales coach is just like a normal coach. It's just funny because it made me realize I don't really have that. I don't have anyone who does that for me. And it's really, really hard.

Michele Hansen (24:36.737)
I mean, I would hope so, yeah? Like, yeah.

Right, okay.

Colleen (24:55.969)
to do that for yourself. Like, yes, I know all the rules. Like, I need an ICP. I need to make my, like, he literally is teaching me what I teach. And I'm like, but it's so nice to have someone who is an expert in his particular field, like for me to just talk to him. And it's just about me, right? It's about who's my ICP, who's in my network. How should I reach those people? Even though those are things I could probably figure out all on my own.

Michele Hansen (24:59.671)
tool.

Colleen (25:23.583)
It's super nice to have someone else listen to me and try and help me figure it out.

Michele Hansen (25:30.889)
Yeah, mean, it's kind of like how therapists have their own therapists, right? Like, yeah, you need you, the experts have their own experts they go to.

Colleen (25:34.571)
Yeah, conceptually, it's the same.

Colleen (25:39.277)
Yeah, it's just the funniest thing is literally like, like when he was like, well, you got to define an ICP. was, and then he was like, I was like, yeah, I teach people how to do that. So cool. Cool.

Michele Hansen (25:50.434)
I mean, but I feel like you could just make like Colleen Bot that is like, you know, you could just make like a video audio version of yourself created by Claude that asks you all of the questions that you ask other people.

Colleen (25:54.591)
You know, it just doesn't work very well.

Colleen (26:02.207)
All the questions. I don't think, so this is the thing, like I was talking to one of my girlfriends who's acted as a very, she's also a startup founder. So she's also acted as a very helpful sounding board. And I noticed like, Claude will always tell, like it's just, there's no creativity, right? There's no thinking outside of the box. Claude is like, I see your network is SaaS founders and developers. So obviously your ICP,

should be SaaS founders and develop, know, like there's no, there's no like thinking outside the box. Yeah. It doesn't think who knew. wait, we all knew we just forget. just pattern matches. So it pattern matches on what I tell it to pattern match on. So it's been really cool having an outside voice, like someone else, someone outside of my network doesn't know me, to come in with this totally different perspective.

Michele Hansen (26:33.685)
It doesn't think. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't think. Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (26:54.871)
Wait, do you tell Claude to be critical though? Like, I mean...

Colleen (26:57.461)
Yeah, but it doesn't, I don't know. It doesn't, it still just kind of does what I tell it to do.

Michele Hansen (27:03.597)
Yeah, yeah. Like I'll tell it to be harsh with me. I'll be like, don't hold back. Be critical. Like, and then it's like, okay, well, if I'm being really honest, you know, but even still, it's not, it's not going to give you that, you know, I find this when I'm having it analyze customer interviews, like it gets, you know, 70, 80 % of it, but like, well, 70 % I'll say, but like it doesn't.

Colleen (27:05.973)
Ahem.

That's awesome. I'll try that.

Michele Hansen (27:31.82)
It's not gonna tell me what I found interesting. It's not gonna tell me like, what's the spiky weird thing that I want to follow further. It's not gonna tell me the thing that reminds me of something I heard three years ago that now I'm just realizing might be something, right? Even if that thing is in my notes, right? It's not giving me, I don't know, I guess that brain I have built up over my professional career, right? Like to what you were saying earlier.

Colleen (27:34.637)
Mm-hmm.

Colleen (27:45.963)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (27:59.118)
But yeah, doesn't give you that outside the box thing. And this is honestly of everything going on right now, and I think you've said this as well, I'm so bullish on in-person events, Especially as a writer, right? I sent out a newsletter a couple months ago, I it was like a month ago, when I did my ship score framework thing about how to prioritize.

Colleen (28:13.099)
Mm-hmm.

Colleen (28:23.137)
Yep. Yep. I remember.

Michele Hansen (28:26.411)
all your ideas and everything. And I felt like I had to write at the bottom, like every word of this was written by me because there's no way that you know that, you know, and versus like if you're at an in-person event, if you're talking to someone in person, if you're watching me speak on stage, like, you know that's me, you know, I guess I could be like, what was it? I was gonna say Kanye, but not a Kanye hologram because he's not dead. Michael Jackson or someone they made a hologram? Yeah, thank you.

Colleen (28:32.79)
Yeah.

Colleen (28:36.642)
Right.

Colleen (28:51.967)
Tupac.

You're welcome.

Michele Hansen (29:05.579)
Yeah, you know it's that person, right? For sure. Versus even if like, like you might not be you right now. Like I might actually be talking to Claude Colleen because you fed your voice to AI and you fed like our past video podcast to AI and it was like, all right, I'm gonna make this Colleen. And then, but like, it's gonna think that, you know, getting interrupted by

Colleen (29:10.059)
Yeah, yes, yes.

Colleen (29:21.993)
Yeah, I mean

Michele Hansen (29:35.756)
what was it plumbers or something like is going to be like that's like part of your shtick every single time and so it's going to have you interrupted by like like this time you know there's landscapers outside and then next time you know there's going to be like some other interruption right like you might not be you like there's no there's no way for anybody to know that this is actually our voices which is terrifying but they can know that if we are

Colleen (29:39.936)
yeah. Every time.

Colleen (29:58.722)
Weird. Yeah, it really is.

Michele Hansen (30:02.953)
at an event, if you are in person, if you are sitting, I mean, like when you meet up with this friend of yours, like are you actually going out to coffee? Are they local or is it online? I think those things are so worth it now. Like so, and I think coming out of COVID, there was definitely a feeling that like in-person events were going to be a big thing again and like revenge travel. And I feel like a lot of conference organizers I know had a really rough year, like 2023, 2024.

Colleen (30:11.029)
Yeah, they're local. We meet in person. We meet in person. Mm-hmm. I do too.

Michele Hansen (30:32.333)
then maybe that was more like the engineering job market and stuff like that. But I'm super bullish on it right now because it's the only way you can know that there's a real person behind something is to be able to, you know, reach out and poke them.

Colleen (30:51.212)
Yeah.

Colleen (30:57.165)
Good talk, good talk. Yes.

Michele Hansen (30:58.221)
Are you submitting any talks this year? Do you have any coming up?

Colleen (31:01.899)
I do not. I, so I, you know, I am in this very interesting professional transition phase, as you are well aware. so I really don't go to conferences. I generally try not to go to conferences unless I'm speaking and I really need a high, I need a real goal besides that. I just want to see my friends to justify the cost of conferences these days.

So, I mean, if I got into an industry and was like, I'm gonna be the AI person for property managers, then yeah, I'd go to like a property manager conference or whatever. But I just, you know, just to go to go isn't really worth the amount of money I'd have to spend. That's generally my conference vibe.

Michele Hansen (31:46.262)
Yeah, I mean, I really enjoy going as as a speaker, but I do tend to feel like my.

you know, my speaking and sort of all this kind of stuff is kind of self-indulgent, right? So I'm always like, is it really like contributing to the business? But just in the past week, like, you know, one of our engineer applicants, like, told me that they saw me speak at Fullstack Europe four years ago. And last week, a customer told me that they, you know, when they needed a geocoding service, that they had heard us on startups for the rest of us, like, which was

Colleen (32:13.59)
Yep.

Michele Hansen (32:23.417)
Years ago, think that was Matthias and I were both on it and they're like I want to use geocode because they seem like you know like Nice people. They're not the big guys, right? Which kind of me feel good it made me feel like you know, cuz I I enjoy Doing this and trying to help other founders because I feel like they're

Colleen (32:24.094)
years ago.

Michele Hansen (32:43.511)
You know, like when I was coming up, like, I didn't really have anybody helping me. And I feel like the only people I knew around me who were starting software businesses, it was all like venture-backed And it was like people that like, you know, there was like a, I don't know what you call it, a co-working space thing in DC that was like, but it was like all like funded startups. And like the fact that like Geocodeo wasn't.

wasn't really anything like sexy or interesting and like fundable was like people were like, why are you even bothering? Right? And oh my God, I mean, I think I've told you this, but I remember, remember when I went to microcon for the first time, it was like 2019. And I had this like image in my head that you had to be already successful in order to go to microcon. Cause I guess it was like the only people I knew who went.

Colleen (33:16.961)
Yeah.

Colleen (33:33.207)
Mm-hmm.

Michele Hansen (33:33.358)
And I remember going in and being so sheepish about it and being like, oh yeah, we're just at a million ARR. And people were like, where have you been? Like, what? And they're like, how did you get that far and you haven't been here? And how do we not know you? Like, what? And I was like, oh, I definitely thought I was the least successful person in this room.

Colleen (33:42.317)
What? Yeah. Yeah.

Colleen (34:00.397)
You

Michele Hansen (34:01.006)
like the whole conference, like I didn't find that until like the end of the conference.

did I end up on that ramble? I don't know. Yeah, so I enjoy it. Like I enjoy kind of, yeah, I sort of being visible for other people and stuff because I didn't have that. I have so much fun with it. Yeah. Yeah.

Colleen (34:08.365)
I think if you enjoy it, and we're talking about speaking at conferences.

Colleen (34:16.343)
I think if you enjoy it and you have the time and bandwidth to do it, it's yeah, like you love it. So you should do it. It's my take on it. And I think your point is really well taken. Like for me, when I was doing software dev consulting, speaking at conferences was my pipeline. Like it worked and it was the same. Like people would, they'd see it on YouTube. They were like, I saw your talk two years ago. And for me, it might be the same with this AI consulting. If I continue to pursue this direction, it could be the same, right? Like I could be,

Michele Hansen (34:32.877)
Yeah.

Colleen (34:45.643)
Maybe I should go to conferences and speak about how I've implemented AI in different businesses and what you can do with AI and yeah, exactly. And so, that's right. That's right. so there, there might be a thing there. There might be something there, but yeah, I have nothing lined up.

Michele Hansen (34:51.201)
fine.

Michele Hansen (34:55.335)
Like you're building AI stuff for me right now.

Michele Hansen (35:06.413)
What is your sales coach saying that you should be doing? Or is he just listening to you and you're like talking out loud?

Colleen (35:11.661)
I mean, he's literally like, I'm not, he's no, he basically is saying exactly what, so this is actually interesting. Actually, I'd love your take on this if we have time. He's saying exactly what I teach people, right? It's the same thing. He's like, find your niche, make your LinkedIn, right? But now my LinkedIn says, you know, like AI automations or something super generic, right? It's the same advice we give as marketers. Generic is terrible because if it's for everyone, it's for no one.

But I told him I built you an inbound SDR pipeline. And he was like, you should go. So then he was like, well, maybe you should lean into that specifically. And like, you know, SaaS founders, you should probably be building automations for SaaS founders. And I'm like, I don't know how many money. And he's like, is that true? And I'm like, you're right, that's not true. So anyway, that's my whole thing. So anyway, right now at this very second in time, I think I am going, I know SaaS founders. I think like,

I think I'll niche down between you guys and like my coaching clients and a couple other interesting chats I've had like the SaaS founders minimum 50 K MRR trying to build sales pipelines maybe or trying to build content pipelines. Cause those are the two that I've done so far.

Michele Hansen (36:25.195)
Yeah, yeah, like where is the manual work happening, right? Because like, Claude is automating stuff for us, you know, on the engineering side, but the sales and marketing side has so much manual work that's still going on.

Colleen (36:34.732)
Right.

Colleen (36:42.933)
Yeah, but I really am hoping like as I work longer for you and learn more about your business, we will discover even more things that can be automated so that.

Michele Hansen (36:51.233)
Are you gonna work for me for more than the plan six months? Is that what you're saying? I feel like this is such a weird like relationship of like work really. Okay. Well, yeah, okay It's a weird relationship in the first place

Colleen (36:58.049)
so weird relations publicly that we're having publicly. Okay. Not only am I working for you.

Michele Hansen (37:07.213)
Is the public version of a relationship weird or the entire relationship?

Colleen (37:11.969)
Just the public, I think just the public part is funny. Where it's like, it'll just come up on a podcast. Like, what are we going to do? Have we thought this through? Okay, but this is like.

Michele Hansen (37:21.32)
We were on a call last week though and like I forget what it there was like you know like a couple of other people from our team were like on on the call and What did we end up talking about? Oh, we started talking about protein and how hard it is to eat enough protein Okay, I'm apparently supposed to be eating a hundred like a hundred and don't know whatever it is. How amount of protein? Yeah, 143 specifically and like

Colleen (37:25.44)
yeah, you started talking.

Colleen (37:33.005)
Protein. You started talking about protein.

Colleen (37:38.669)
That's insane, Michelle. It was 140 grams of protein.

Michele Hansen (37:44.91)
And I was like, I don't know how, like, this is like literally a part-time job of like trying to eat enough protein. Colleen, I did not eat enough protein today. Like, like my coach is going to be mad at me. I know. I don't know why. Like, I don't. It's like, I don't, I don't even know what formula they're using for it and everything. And oh my God, I think I'm only, I think I'm only at like 80 or something today, maybe like 90. It's not good.

Colleen (37:51.874)
That's an insane amount of protein. You're super short too. You're literally six inches shorter than me and I don't eat that much protein.

Colleen (38:06.193)
man, I do want to talk about your protein intake.

Colleen (38:13.025)
But you're super short. You're 140 grams of protein. Anyway. Okay. Anyway, anyway.

Michele Hansen (38:15.629)
I I'm so, but I'm trying to build muscle. but anyway, Colleen and I start having this conversation in the middle of a meeting last week. And then we just like turned to them and I was like, this is why we have a podcast. We were talking about something, no, okay, it was a weird working relationship. Odd emotions.

Colleen (38:27.859)
my gosh.

AI automotions, yes. Did I say automotions or did I say that? Locomotion.

Michele Hansen (38:38.377)
AI locomotions. Because, I mean, the sort of the plan is, like, you're gonna work for me for six months, which I think that started in February, because you wanna get this AI consulting going, you wanna get, you know, ideally like a product business going out of that. But it's this like weird thing where I'm like, but will you work for me for longer? Rather than, you know.

I don't know how you felt when you had a corporate or you were a full-time employee somewhere where every time your boss wanted to talk to you, you were like, I'm getting fired. I'm certain I'm getting fired. I feel like it's the other way around.

Colleen (39:16.525)
I'm getting fired.

Colleen (39:23.184)
Oh my gosh. I just would like to say, this isn't a great conversation for a podcast, but I love working for you and I'm not even making that up. Cause you know my last job and you knew how I felt about my last job. So anyway, I just want you to know that I love working for you and I love your company and I'm kind of obsessed with the way you guys run your company. Oh, I literally tell my friends about it. Did I tell you this? Oh my gosh.

Michele Hansen (39:38.273)
She's just saying that because it's a podcast. Don't believe her.

Michele Hansen (39:49.536)
No?

Colleen (39:51.478)
Okay, so I was talking to a friend and this friend has a remote co-founder and you may remember that I once had a remote co-founder and I think someone had just put out a podcast about their co-founder. It was the guys, the bootstrap, bootstrap is Justin and Brian and that crew. had just put out, yes, that's it. So they had just put out a podcast about co-founder issues. So I had listened to that and I was thinking about like this whole remote

Michele Hansen (40:10.727)
the panel? Okay.

Colleen (40:20.301)
thing and how hard it can be if you have a remote co-founder because issues can just fester. Because you can just choose to not, you can just choose to not deal with something and you can just ignore it, right? Like you can just ignore these problems. And the, think it was Justin was like, we were just ignoring these big problems because we didn't have to deal with them and he was far away and I didn't really know how he felt. And then we got together and it was all solved. What I think is so cool about the way you guys run your company.

is I was on a call with you in the morning and then I was on a call with your husband in the afternoon and your husband said something and I thought in my head, Michelle's not going to like that, but I didn't say anything. And then. And then this happened. I didn't tell you this and then what was so great about this is instead of this becoming a thing, whatever I don't even know, it was tiny. was a tiny thing, but instead of it becoming like a whole thing, you guys talked about it over dinner and it was solved the next morning.

Like your speed to decision making is so, fast. Cause you can just talk about it over dinner and solve it. Whereas if you had been remote co-founders, that could have taken a week, two weeks, a month. Like it's crazy. It makes such a difference.

Michele Hansen (41:34.518)
Yeah, I mean, I guess also for the two of us, like we worked together before we were ever a couple or ever co-founders together. And so it's just super natural to us that we like, we already know how to like problem solve.

Colleen (41:47.777)
You already know how to work together.

Michele Hansen (41:52.674)
things and I think like so much of life really is project management and we're not always perfect at it. Like I think construction project management was a challenge for both of us. Software project management, easy in comparison. Not that we always do it amazingly, right? I don't know. We're also probably very boring people for our daughter to listen to at the dinner table. So she's had to deal with this. Yeah, yeah.

Colleen (41:52.918)
Yeah.

Problems. Project management.

Colleen (42:05.225)
Easy compared.

Colleen (42:10.359)
Well, it's just like as I...

Colleen (42:15.063)
Well, as I think about like her whole life actually, right?

As I think about things I want to do in the future and people I want to work with, noticing your dynamic, I have so noticed your dynamic and it is so positive. When I think about other people, seriously, because I want to start another business, whether it's this consulting or it's a product, I love working with people. My life goal is to build software with people I like. I love working with people, but your dynamic is very noticeable in a good way in that like...

this is maybe a tiny disagreement or maybe I don't understand this, we're gonna handle this literally right now. And it will be solved in eight hours. Most, like just most people don't do that. Anyway, that's cool, that's all.

Michele Hansen (43:01.101)
Hmm. I mean, I guess we kind of come back to what we were talking about, like in person. Like, maybe, like, do you need to have an in-person relationship before you co-found a company with somebody? Like, and not just over over Zoom, right? Like. Like, you know, you know them like, you know them physically, like, just like very.

Colleen (43:14.637)
I don't know.

Colleen (43:25.165)
You are real you're not AI generated.

Michele Hansen (43:30.887)
very close to saying you know them biblically, which is not required. But you have met them in person and maybe you at least live in the same general metropolitan area and you can meet up about things.

Colleen (43:46.166)
I just like, I think I'm not saying you need it, but like just seeing the way you guys work compared to other people I have worked for or like other experiences I have had, like it seems like it makes a huge difference is all I'm saying.

Michele Hansen (43:59.458)
I'm really happy to hear that and it's so nice of you to just talk about how great we are on a podcast. but like I, you know, I think something actually you wanted to dig into last time and we just kind of skirted over it was our journey to hiring people. And I feel like that face was like, you were like,

Colleen (44:19.019)
Yes.

So excited.

Michele Hansen (44:24.543)
I actually have a microwave right here and I'm pulling out some popcorn that I've had sitting here warming for this moment and you're just like...

Colleen (44:30.633)
That's right. Just been waiting for it for five years.

Michele Hansen (44:35.956)
Five long years. Like the Titanic lady. Okay. And I think, you know, there's a variety of reasons that we held off on hiring, right? Like, I don't think we made our first hire until we were like, I don't know, one and a half, two million AR? And part of that...

Colleen (44:37.215)
I long ears.

Michele Hansen (44:59.021)
was A, me being afraid that I would basically be an amalgamation of like every bad boss I had ever had, but like worse. Like I was afraid I would be a terrible person to work for. And also I had heard like horror stories from people who had worked for couples and them saying how they would never work for a couple ever again.

Colleen (45:08.845)
Mm-hmm.

Colleen (45:20.563)
Mm-hmm.

Michele Hansen (45:26.183)
And I was like, God, like I'm gonna be a terrible boss. And then just like the dynamic of having, you know, bosses who are married, like is also going to be just awful for whomever is working for us. And it's really important to me to, you whenever I've had a difficult experience in my life to like not.

Colleen (45:26.349)
I can see that.

Michele Hansen (45:49.246)
replicate that for other people. Like, ideally, we're providing a better work environment for people and, you know, also like a better product experience than they've had elsewhere, right? Like, that's so important to me. And, you know, and then I think after we moved here and like just customer support with time zones and everything, it just like, it just became really, really difficult. And we happen to have, you know, a sort of trusted former coworker of Matias has become available.

And then I had my VA as well, who I brought, who was my VA, guess, for two years before I brought her in house. And I think after like two years of that, and then being like, no, you're not terrible to work for, like, I kind of started to believe them. But I seriously thought it would just be like a terrible place to work because it's a couple and that I would be terrible to work for.

Colleen (46:46.337)
Well, I'm glad you realize that wasn't true. I mean, it's like anything in life. If you're aware of aware of what you don't want to do, I think you are extra cautious to not act in that way.

Michele Hansen (46:58.495)
so. Yeah.

Colleen (46:59.637)
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying, if you saw these example of terrible bosses, so you were attuned to the fact that you didn't want to manage in that particular way.

Michele Hansen (47:09.055)
Yeah, but I think the, you know, and I'm actually, should say that I'm very lucky to have some, like I've had some amazing bosses, like one of whom was the best man in our wedding and is still one of our close friends. And, but yeah, I think I was so afraid of that. And I sometimes when you read a lot of business advice, like a lot of it is like, you should hire at like,

you know, this MRR or like this MRR, you should have this MRR per employee or like, it's all but but it's well specific, but it's all like

Colleen (47:41.281)
Yeah, they're very specific.

Michele Hansen (47:48.814)
It's only the rational side of it, right? Like it doesn't take that into consideration of like, like I had actually never managed people before. Like I had managed interns, plenty of interns, but not, I'd never had a full-time employee who was my direct report. And I think one of the most valuable things you can do as an entrepreneur is to learn as much as possible.

on other people's dime and make mistakes on other people's dime. And it's not like you have to learn everything before you run a company, right? But absorb as much as you can and make mistakes when it doesn't really matter, when you're going to get a salary anyway. I mean, not huge mistakes, But learn, basic stuff like managing people. I wish I...

Colleen (48:33.355)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (48:43.285)
could have learned that as an FTE myself. And I guess that's just, I don't know, something I sometimes find missing a little bit is like the emotional piece of fears or reservations or like backstory that someone might have beyond rationally looking at a set of numbers and making a decision based on that. And I think...

Colleen (48:47.522)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (49:09.289)
Everyone thinks that you should only make decisions rationally. like there is... Decisions are always emotional, right? There's always an emotional component to them. And you cannot separate the emotion because the emotion actually makes you a better decision maker. Like there's studies of people who had traumatic brain injuries and lost the parts of their brain that are emotional. And as a result, they were unable to make decisions because they could not decide

Colleen (49:18.914)
Yeah.

Colleen (49:33.538)
Mm-hmm.

Colleen (49:37.142)
Interesting.

Michele Hansen (49:39.148)
what they wanted to eat that day, right? They did not know how they felt about specific foods, right? And so if you lose the emotion, now you can't just use the emotion, right? You can't just decide that like, Skittles are the most amazing food and then just eat Skittles, right? Cause you are not gonna hit your protein goals if you just eat Skittles, okay? Let me tell you. Maybe speaking from experience, I don't know, like, I don't even like Skittles that much. I'm a starburst girl. But like,

Colleen (49:41.409)
Wow. Yeah.

Colleen (49:50.262)
Yeah, yeah.

Colleen (49:56.622)
You're not going to get 143 grams of protein. Skittles.

Michele Hansen (50:09.153)
You know, you can't just make decisions based on that, but you cannot also separate the emotion from it. And you cannot separate the emotion from, you know, like, like, you know, I mentioned, like, the ship score framework I made to help you prioritize, you know, like bugs and feature requests and all your ideas, like which ones are the ones you should be prioritizing, right? Like, you can do all of that, but you can't separate the emotion of, I feel bad when people are

Colleen (50:27.085)
Hmm

Michele Hansen (50:38.005)
writing in with a bunch of bugs, right? Like I feel like I'm letting them down, right? Or pressure you might feel around it. And I think, I mean, I guess you can probably guess what my opinion is on stoicism. But I think emotion is actually helpful.

Colleen (50:39.987)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (51:00.583)
And I guess that the fact that I had those like feels about being afraid of being a terrible boss, I mean, hopefully they made me a better one because as you said, I'm aware of it.

Colleen (51:13.1)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (51:17.58)
Yeah.

Michele Hansen (51:25.015)
I don't know, I've been talking 80 % of the time for the past 10 minutes or whatever and I just realized that and now I'm thirsty because I've been talking so much. I don't know, I mean like, I guess how do you see that playing into like, into your work?

Colleen (51:27.945)
Hahaha

Colleen (51:39.064)
So it's so interesting you bring this up because you know me, right? Like I wanna have my own business, which I do, but like I want all the things. But what I have noticed is a lot of people will now bounce their ideas off of me. And I am very, very discerning when I think about...

If if it's a huge F right like this AI consulting might be just a total win and I might just do this and get my house. Hope so. We all hope so, but I have found that I've been very discerning about what kind of business ideas I'm willing to pursue and I think one like my filter is just more refined after having done this several times. But I also think there's like this emotional piece to it and I you know me like I don't I don't really emotion. I don't really do that very well.

Michele Hansen (52:09.485)
I hope so.

Michele Hansen (52:30.957)
Well, do, no, actually you do it like the best of anybody I know. Like you process emotions so well and you don't sit on them or ignore them, but you also don't get like, you don't get overwhelmed by them. Like you are literally the most emotionally healthy person I know to the point where it confuses me. Like that is how I describe you to people.

Colleen (52:32.813)
Hmm

I do.

Thank you.

Colleen (52:45.763)
I love that.

Colleen (52:54.357)
I that. That you get, love, I love hearing that. That's good to hear. That's good to hear. But I find that I am letting, so as I think about like, do I want to pursue this idea with this person? Do I want to pursue this idea with this person? I am letting like, I almost feel like in the world of AI, like having an emotional bent is important because it makes you human. It's a huge, thank you.

Michele Hansen (53:16.301)
It's a human bent.

Colleen (53:18.869)
Like a human bent like I'm going to pursue this idea because I'm incredibly passionate about it. I'm going to pursue this idea that I think it's going to win whatever it is. I think having having that is a bit of a driver is a super positive thing.

Michele Hansen (53:32.139)
I completely agree.

Michele Hansen (53:36.684)
Yeah, well, we're in agreement. It is 9.30 p.m. I've still got 50 grams of protein to eat. Didn't get any of the stuff done that I wanted to get done today. I think we're gonna call it for today. Yeah, you're going on vacation, right, next week?

Colleen (53:38.989)
Go team.

Colleen (53:45.025)
my gosh, how are you still awake?

Colleen (53:56.366)
Yeah, you need to go to bed. We need to call it. I am going on vacation next week. I'm very excited.

Michele Hansen (54:03.893)
You might write a blog post for me about it and people can find out about it. I know, yeah, so we're gonna just, we're just gonna leave it on a secret.

Colleen (54:07.085)
Yes. Oh yeah, but it's a secret. Although if you're 54 minutes into this podcast, I could probably tell you because you're really committed to us. I was, it was, okay. I'll talk about it next week. You should have seen, oh my gosh. Oh, and I was so excited about it and you guys were all asleep and like, I get, you know, I get really excited about things. So I really wanted to tell everyone.

Michele Hansen (54:16.565)
It involves Geocodeo, an AI. Spoilers. Yeah, but we're not going to be on next week.

Michele Hansen (54:31.629)
For context, it was like middle of the night, time. It's not like it was like 3 p.m. our time and we were just like conked out on our desks. Yeah.

Colleen (54:41.901)
like send you guys all these Slack messages about how excited I am about the GeoCodeo CLI. And I'm like Colleen simmer down. They don't need to see all of your screenshots.

Michele Hansen (54:48.405)
You should! No, no, no! Write all of them and then schedule them to send at 9am I time and then I'm just gonna get barrage! Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do it.

Colleen (54:54.913)
to send in the morning when you guys wake up. Like, look what I did. Look what I did. I'm so excited. This is so cool. Anyway, random tangent. Well, I'm going to go on my vacation. Colleen's idea. I also, we should.

Michele Hansen (55:02.271)
You should do that.

Or maybe just make a channel of Colleen's enthusiasm as a channel and then I'm not getting a DM. my god, do you have a channel where you're just talking to yourself?

Colleen (55:15.157)
Okay, there's so many things I want to send to the Geocodeo Slack, but you guys seem very serious. So I don't do it. Like this morning, I did share the Stripe Minion API because I really wanted you guys to see that. But anyway, yeah, we should just have Colleen's excited ideas. All the great ideas Colleen has.

Michele Hansen (55:20.565)
You should send it! my god, we are not serious. We are so not serious.

Michele Hansen (55:31.443)
You should share things. are not like... my god, the last thing I hope we are is like serious and stodgy and like...

Colleen (55:34.891)
seems very serious over there.

I didn't say stodgy. just said serious. anyway. Okay.

Michele Hansen (55:41.902)
Well, I said Staji. That's what I don't want to be. We actually realized actually last summer when I hired our friend Leanna Patch, your former co-coach, to work on a copy for our website, our new website, which has not launched yet. Maybe by the next time we record it, we'll.

Colleen (55:53.227)
My former co-coach.

Colleen (56:05.773)
Ooh, that'd be exciting.

Michele Hansen (56:06.739)
And something I realized was like none of our personality was in Geocodeo at all. Like none of it. and not that, you know, a company like the brand should be a reflection of the founders personalities, but like there was like a startling lack of any personality. And also it had like.

Colleen (56:12.294)
Mmm, at all. Yeah.

Michele Hansen (56:31.501)
been run by such a small team for such a long time, as our little software baby. It was just very like, wow, this is weird that we made it so bland. And I'm so sorry to hear that our Slack is bland.

Colleen (56:48.331)
I did, my gosh, I take it back. We, we shouldn't have a podcast anymore because I can't bring it.

Michele Hansen (56:50.593)
You need to bring in some of that California spice. look, it's, you know what? It's like, we're in Denmark here. Our spices are salt, pepper, and paprika. Don't go too heavy on the paprika, right? I need you to pour some of that California hot sauce on our slack, all right? Like, make it interesting.

Colleen (56:57.246)
my gosh.

Colleen (57:04.213)
Ha

Colleen (57:08.155)
man. All right, well I'll let you go to bed.

Michele Hansen (57:12.077)
Yeah, yeah, I should do that after I, well, I have to publish this and then I'll do that. But we don't, I don't think I have to edit anything out. Like we were, we were good. There were no interruptions by people coming to the door. I don't think we swore, which is so good. Like, did I tell you, the way, what our daughter, for some reason, she was, I asked her to describe me, how she would describe me to other people. Did I tell you this?

Colleen (57:14.081)
You should do that.

Colleen (57:18.751)
No, we were fine. Nope.

Thank goodness... we didn't.

Colleen (57:37.448)
No, but I want to hear it.

Michele Hansen (57:39.021)
Yeah, and she's like, well, can we take out the part where I have to tell other people? And I was like, OK, here we go. You that was my popcorn moment. She said that I am always five minutes late, that I like to show daddy funny cartoons from The New Yorker, and that I swear a lot.

Colleen (57:56.727)
Sounds right.

Colleen (58:00.973)
It's amazing.

Michele Hansen (58:01.845)
And that I'm sweet and nice and blah, blah, blah. You know, that was sort of added on as an offended afterwards. Yes. It's great. This is great. But I didn't swear. It's pretty good. I'm capable of it. Just apparently not in front of my child. So that's... I'm not swearing at her to be clear. Like this is like we're talking like stubbed toe type things, okay? Anyway.

Colleen (58:03.987)
Yeah, yeah. I don't know at the end, just in case. That's funny.

Colleen (58:17.237)
Not in front of your child, but that's fine.

Michele Hansen (58:29.374)
Well, now that I have made myself sound like a terrible parent who is giving my child...

Colleen (58:32.129)
Yeah, this is again, the weirdest podcast ever. I don't know if like this is, just like, I completely feel like, yeah, I'm just not even, I'm just doing whatever I want here. Anyway, it's all good. That's what we do.

Michele Hansen (58:38.221)
you

Michele Hansen (58:43.831)
That's it. All right. Well, we will be back in a few weeks after Easter break and then everyone has recovered from Easter break. So, yeah, maybe like three-ish weeks from now, two, three-ish weeks. Let's say three. Let's say three. Yeah. And then we can always surprise people by doing it sooner, but we're not going to do it sooner because there's like school vacation and stuff. You know, right? Managing expectations.

Colleen (58:51.66)
after spring break.

Yeah

Colleen (59:02.581)
Sounds good. Okay, let's say three.

Colleen (59:09.709)
You're not supposed to tell the people that. That's not how managing expectations.

Michele Hansen (59:15.117)
I know, I know. Okay, it's actually gonna be six weeks and then we're gonna release it in three, okay?

Colleen (59:22.985)
my gosh, okay. All right, bye. Bye.

Michele Hansen (59:23.597)
Okay, bye!