Colleen Schnettler 0:00
Welcome back to software social. This is Colleen. And this week we're going to be doing something a little bit different. Michelle is at a conference this week. So I have my business partner, Aaron Francis on the podcast with me to talk about all things Hammerstone. You've heard me talking on the show a lot about Hammerstone and trying to find product market fit with that product. So who better to have on the pod than Aaron, my co founder? Hi, Erin. Thanks for joining me,

Aaron Francis 0:27
co founder and probably best friend, I would say, yeah, totally. I think I think I've taken the mantle from Michelle now because she missed one week. So I'm now your best friend. No, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. It's weird. It's like we talk all the time. But I'm excited to be here. So thanks for having

Colleen Schnettler 0:44
me. Awesome. I am happy to have you. So I wanted to lead with something kind of fun that I haven't told you yet. Because I just found out this morning. Okay. Yeah, no, I love doing that to people when they come on my podcast. I'm like, I haven't told you this yet. Now is the time. So I have been working with Pascal and super charts. I told you that. So basically, super charts is something you can scaffold within bullet train. And it enables you to have charts in your app with zero work. It's amazing. And he has been working on getting that hooked into refine. So now I have a working demo of changing filters and real time line chart updates.

Aaron Francis 1:26
Oh, dang.

Colleen Schnettler 1:27
Oh, get this legit. Yeah, it's really cool. It gets even better. So this morning, he told me that he's going to open source the line charts. So we can have it and ship it. Like it could be a thing we ship with refine, or people can use it for free with refined and bullet train. So he's going to do make the charting library that part of the chart charting library, the line charts open source. Well, that's

Aaron Francis 1:49
pretty cool. Yeah, that's like step beyond filtering a list of contacts and puts us fully into like, bi, you know, business intelligence stuff. That's pretty cool.

Colleen Schnettler 2:01
Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. I mean, I don't exactly know, because it's really tightly coupled the scaffolding and bullet train right now. And he's not going to pull it out a bullet train. But it could still be something now that bullet trains open source is someone bought refined, they could just dig into it. He loads it, I think via he definitely loads it via turbo. So it's like, loaded via URL, so people could definitely dig into it and create charts like that. Cool. Yeah, yeah. It's cool. I'm pretty excited. I love I love some charts. So I'm excited.

Aaron Francis 2:33
A lot of everybody loves charts. Everybody's like, Hey, how can I use your thing? For charts? I'm gonna have to do that part yourself. So that's cool. Yeah, it's

Colleen Schnettler 2:42
cool. And I on boarded two of our first non bullet train customers, it's irrelevant that they are not bullet train, because we're pretty tightly coupled with bullet train. So pulling this out of bullet train was a lot of work. And I just think you and I have a lot to think about and talk about in terms of, I feel like we're so close. But we don't quite have the product yet.

Aaron Francis 3:07
Yeah. So when you when you onboard these two people, which parts, I guess which parts did you feel like they were super vibing? With? And which parts? Did you feel like? We're not quite there? Like, did we solve the stated pain point? I guess there's there's two questions. Did we solve the thing we set out to solve for them? And the second question, is the thing that we set out to solve? Is that the pain point that they needed solving,

Colleen Schnettler 3:39
right? So did we solve what we intended to solve? I would say, yes, I, okay. Let's go with the first customer. Yes, asterik, because he wants to use these filters to show his end users. And so he needs a UI that matches his UI,

Aaron Francis 4:00
right? Tail is old as this company. Yeah.

Colleen Schnettler 4:03
Right. And then the second user, he is still working on it, because he has some tables, what do you call those fake tables? Views? It's not what I'm thinking CTS. They're not CTS? I'd have to look again, he has those views. It's not that's not what I'm thinking. He has some kind of setup where he's doing a bunch of joins. And he's trying to query through the bunch of joins. I can show you later anyway. So he is working on getting Hammerstone integrated into his setup. And so it's too soon to say, but as our first customer said to me yesterday after we got off a pairing call. He's like, even if I've spent a couple of days on this, it's it saves me months of work compared to having to build it myself. Yeah,

Aaron Francis 4:57
that's extremely rational. I just I don't know how we get more people to think. Well,

Colleen Schnettler 5:02
I think that's the fun, you know, that goes back to the fundamental problem that developers value their time at negative $100. an hour. Right?

Aaron Francis 5:09
Right. When Ben roasted me publicly on Twitter. Yep. And then I called him out for it on this podcast.

Colleen Schnettler 5:15
Yeah. Yeah. I think yeah, both of these guys. These are, I believe their companies, or they are either Well, I know for sure one owns the company. And I think the other person it is his, I think, for both of them. And I think most of our inbound have been people who own their business are very high up like CTOs. And so those are people who recognize the value of saving their time,

Aaron Francis 5:39
right? Yeah, those aren't just mid level or just strictly internal developers. So we did the thing we set out to do, which is question number one, like we told them, we would do this, we did that thing. That's a good start. I mean, doing what we said we were going to do is probably a good start. So the second question is, is what we're saying we're going to do, is that valuable to these people? So from these two onboarding things? That's the second question. Yeah. And

Colleen Schnettler 6:11
I feel like it's valuable, but maybe not as painful as we want it to be. Okay. This is just a hunch. I have like neither of them said that. But I just I feel like I mean, okay, so let's play the game. buckbee always tells me to play and our friend and his game is if you had the perfect product right now, like, what would it be? And what would you do to market and sell it? Because I'm really getting hung up on the product right now. And I think you were doing that like three or four months ago. Correct. Whereas even even after onboarding them, I was like, so it was last week, I was like, Man, did I onboard them too quickly? Like, should I have waited? Although the feedback from them has been really good. So I wouldn't say that I did it too soon. But I do have some kind of mental blocks with the challenge, like, one of the customers, I mean, we have a lot of views. And he overrode every single view to customize it the way he wants it to look. Yeah, that's, I mean, he spent several days on it. So I believe so we can't Yikes, that's not going to work. To me. I'm like, that's not gonna work. People aren't gonna buy a product, we just the market is not big enough for that, so I'm kind of getting a little hung up on the product. But let's not let's not worry about the product right now, if we had the perfect product, and if you know, I had the CSS all the way I wanted, and everything was easy to override. are we solving a painful problem that a lot of people have? That's the real question to your second point.

Aaron Francis 7:42
Yeah, that was my question.

Colleen Schnettler 7:44
That I'm asking you.

Aaron Francis 7:46
You can't you can't do that. I asked you the question first.

Colleen Schnettler 7:50
I don't know. Aaron, this is what I'm getting hung up on is like, I don't know. And I think all we can do is continue to talk to people. But I just don't know. I don't know how painful it is. And I don't know. Yeah, I'm a little stuck on on stuck on this.

Aaron Francis 8:09
Where are we on the Colleen excitement scale?

Colleen Schnettler 8:15
So well, it's hard to judge today because I've real SAS next week. And so I think if you asked me right after the conference, I'm going to be super pumped. But but I'm just That was a weird noise I made. But I'm, I'm struggling to see the vision right now. Like I feel like we are, we're around the edges of a thing, like data is clearly a problem. Like querying data is clearly a problem. But I feel like we're around the edges of the thing. And I can't figure out what the Tweak is to have the actual thing.

Aaron Francis 8:51
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I feel like I think for the most part, people kind of want what we have. But it does seem like they want us more than they want the thing. Right. They want us to help them. Most of the time solve this, like, dynamic filtering thing. But some of the time just to be like, around to help with database stuff. That seems to be the thing that people continually are coming back for. Yeah. And that that's, that's not a product that's consulting.

Colleen Schnettler 9:27
Right. That's where I'm stuck. And I don't know I so I have a couple ideas. What if, what if we did something kind of drastic to our UI? And we can so we have the ability with a React front end and the rails back end to build filters that look different? I feel like the UI is a sticking point. I feel like I agree.

Aaron Francis 9:51
I can sort of complain and about forever. Yeah, I totally agree. It's a nightmare.

Colleen Schnettler 9:57
I mean, so I've been thinking so I have this idea. Maybe stripe filters for your app. Like that's how you sell it. And we come up with a view with React and rails that's basically looks a lot like the stripe filters.

Aaron Francis 10:09
Yeah. I like Stripe anything. Because all developers stripe, everyone loves you. So no, I don't spend a lot of time on their dashboard. And so I just don't know that they're known for their filters, right?

Colleen Schnettler 10:21
They're not you're piggybacking on stripe. Because everyone's saying it's like, yeah, the I'm just trying to think of like, we have this thing. That's real. Okay. Erin, sidenote, like, I asked you to make me a demo video. That was two minutes long and you sent me a 10 minute video. I'm

Aaron Francis 10:36
Yeah, was that good or bad was bad. Oh, shoot, I'm

Colleen Schnettler 10:39
sorry. I cut out some of it.

Aaron Francis 10:41
I can tell from your tone. If you were really proud of me or really disappointed in me just then. It was a great video. You also told me to be salesy. How can I be salesy and technical in two minutes? I got done. And I was like, Yeah, this is awesome. She's gonna love this. And this is the first feedback. I've heard from it. So welcome. I love to just did you use it? Yeah, I

Colleen Schnettler 11:04
did. I did cut it down to two minutes. I'm sorry. You cut it, dude, no one is gonna watch a 10 minute long video. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. We should still it's still a really good video, and we should still use it for our website. But for this particular thing, I was like, these people are not going to watch a 10 minute or seven minute long video. I didn't I didn't kill it, though. I left all the good excited Aaron in there. So it's, it's good. But my point of that, okay, so, and I'm building this real SAS talk, my talk is like an hour and a half right now.

Aaron Francis 11:39
An hour and a half that way too long. How long? Is it supposed to be

Colleen Schnettler 11:43
Max 45 minutes, but no one ever wants you to really spend 45 minutes. I mean, I could start like, no one's sad when your talk is short. where I'm going with this, though, is you and I talk too much about this product. And we don't we're not succinct. What's the word succinct enough like people, we are not the problem. We have you me? We have way too much context on this. And so we need a message. That's clear. And so the only reason I say like, make filters in your app that look like stripes with your data models, is because people know what that means. Like, yeah, that's a way to communicate what we're doing. And I feel like one of the ways we're failing here is we are not effectively communicating what we are doing.

Aaron Francis 12:30
I agree. I agree with that. Yeah. Okay. I just don't know that stripe has filters.

Colleen Schnettler 12:35
Well, whoever helped communicate? Yeah, I don't know if it's stripe, but but almost like, I feel

Aaron Francis 12:41
like linear or notion or something like that. That is kind of known for having great filtering would be ideal. But yeah, we're not like, we're not super good at communicating the problem.

Colleen Schnettler 12:55
Well, we haven't practiced. I mean, it's not rocket science. Like we can do rocket science. You know, I used to work for NASA. Yeah, you can actually do actually do rockets. I feel like I should we'll figure this out. But I think so what I'm trying to say is, I feel like we need a way. Like Like, I don't know, like I said, it's like we're flirting around the edges of having this. But we don't have a good, like message or vision yet.

Aaron Francis 13:24
Yeah, I agree. I also feel like we've had this conversation before.

Colleen Schnettler 13:29
I feel like we continue to have it. But I think the more time like for me and for you, but especially since we find rails, it's just getting off the ground, the more I see it, and I see what people are doing. And I talk to people, the more I'm like, Oh, we're still we're still a little ways away from having something that gives you like plugging components and gives you the problem is though. The problem is, you can't you can't have Hold on, let me let me think this through. You can't spend hundreds and hundreds of hours based on feedback from for people. Or you I don't think that you should.

Aaron Francis 14:15
Yeah, not after spending 1000s of hours. Based off feedback from zero people. I feel like we should we should just continue to get I mean, yes, we should continue to get more feedback, but the two that you onboarded are happy

Colleen Schnettler 14:32
ish, right? Happy ish. But was only last week. And I would say that they're going to be happy. Neither hundreds

Aaron Francis 14:41
of hours to make them happy. Or can we like no, I'm going

Colleen Schnettler 14:45
to make them I'm going to make sure they're happy, right like these first four people. So I have first if you don't count our client, so this is the group of five I told you about that I'm working with right so I did the first two. I told the other two people I have to wait until after rail SAS because happening in my talk got ready. And then I want to do the next two. And so then we'll have five, we'll have input from five people. And, you know, we can see what we get from that. And then we can we can come up with a game plan. I just think that like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what I think. I think that we need more people. That's what I think we need more people, we need more people. And I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm literally going to this conference. And I'm lucky that Andrew is letting me basically try to sell my stuff during my talk, right? Like, no one ever lets you do that, like, oh, you can't talk about your products during, unless it's open source, you don't care. So I'm going to give a talk in front of I don't know, 150 people, however, many people who is come are coming to the conference, literally trying to sell this. And so my goal next week is just to talk to as many people as I can and just figure out if we're solving a problem they really have what is the real problem is the real problem filters, or is the real problem, database indexing and slow queries,

Aaron Francis 16:06
right? I feel like the last time we went to a conference together, which was what rails

Colleen Schnettler 16:13
rails comp in May, or

Aaron Francis 16:15
something like that, something like that. We were good at like cornering people, and asking them a bunch of questions and getting feedback. At rail, SAS, unfortunately, I won't be there. But after your talk, everybody, everybody's gonna have context for what this thing is, and what we are wanting it to be. And so the more people you can corner, after your talk will be more helpful, because I'll have the context. But the more people you can corner and get real feedback from them, the better and honestly, if they can, if you can get them to say, No, this isn't valuable. Here's what's valuable. That's fine. I'm totally ready. I'm totally ready to give up on this product. If we can find the thing that is adjacent, that they're really like, that's more valuable. Like, I'm not married to this incarnation. I just want to know, what do you guys need?

Colleen Schnettler 17:11
Yeah, I think that's the move. I think I was talking. So I had lunch with a founder here in San Diego, who has grown a pretty big business. And they were talking about how they're super introverted. But what they did before they launched their business is they went to like every meetup they could go to and just talk to the businesses and talk to the businesses and rail SAS is a perfect opportunity to do that. Just talk to them and find out like, I mean, this talk is literally about Hammerstone. Whereas my talk at Sin City, Ruby was about a rail. So people really wanted to talk about the tech, which was fun, like, I enjoy talking about the tech, but that is a step removed from talking about, like, here's the product, this is what it does. Does it solve your problem? Is this something you need? Like, what is your problem? Everyone has this problem? It's some in some iteration, right? This is literally everyone because everyone has an admin dashboard. So right, do you need this is this you know, I think, you know, it's funny. I don't know if it's funny, but it's interesting, because in that book, traction, one of the traction, one of the 17 traction channels is conferences and like, so this is a great opportunity. I think just we're just in the talking to people

Aaron Francis 18:19
phase. Yeah. And we're not talking to enough. That's the problem. I agree.

Colleen Schnettler 18:23
We are in the talking to people phase, and we're not talking to enough people. Yeah. So how do we continue the conversation? How do we find out more quickly, where the real pain points are? And if this is a real pain point,

Aaron Francis 18:38
we talk to more people. And to do that, we need to talk speak fewer conferences. I mean, that's, you know, I have full stack EU next week. You have real SAS next week, I had Lehrer con two or three weeks ago, I have Longhorn PHP, and then I have GitHub universe. And like, I think all of that is good. And I enjoy it. But it's all kind of like tangentially good. It's like this vague, you know, personal brand thing that is like, more or less worthless, but like, and so yeah, I think all these things happened. You know, all these conferences, opened up months and months and months ago. And I was like, Yeah, I'll freakin do whatever I can to be in front of people. Now. It's like, I don't know that I need that. I don't know that. That's helpful.

Colleen Schnettler 19:35
I don't think I think it's a law of diminishing returns, like I think it was

Aaron Francis 19:38
last year, too. That's a good point.

Colleen Schnettler 19:42
position you where you are now, but I don't think it has the same ROI that it did for you last year.

Aaron Francis 19:49
No, and that was I was telling my wife that earlier. It's like if I had known in February of this year, where I would be today in late September, I wouldn't have applied for all these conferences. Yeah. Right. Like, I think I've gotten to the point where it's like, I'm, I'm taken seriously. And after that, like, having more followers on Twitter doesn't make sales for us, like, I just needed to get to the point where it's like, oh, this is a person who is serious, and I'm there now. And but now I have all these obligations. So all that to say, I am aware that we need to be talking individually to people. And I'm kind of stuck talking at these conferences now, which again, I'm excited for. But that strategy is no longer viable or no longer the best use of time, I think.

Colleen Schnettler 20:45
Yeah, I agree. I think that's like, as you said, you're committed and you have a lot of like, for. Yeah, you're committed the obviously. But yeah, I think we need to, we need to think about other things we can do. How are things going on your end with the demo site and all that stuff?

Aaron Francis 21:05
Well, before that, the big news is, I got a new job. So yeah, yeah.

Colleen Schnettler 21:11
How are things? Wait, we totally should have left? Oh, my gosh, it's been like two weeks. So I forgot. How are things going on your end Aaron with a new job

Aaron Francis 21:19
with the new job. It's great. I love it. So I got a job as a developer educator at planet scale, which is a MySQL database company. Imagine that. And it's awesome. I love it so far, like, my whole job is just going to be to write and make videos about my sequel. And of course, you know, go to conferences and speak. So it all kind of lines up, which is nice. It's great. They're super laid back, but also weirdly still being very, like, driven and high achieving. And so the culture is really great. Everyone's extremely supportive and friendly. You know, I've only been there for like a week and a day. Everyone's super kind. I love it. I think it's gonna be great. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun. So yeah, that part's been good. And you know, I was at Drupal halftime before for a couple months. And that just put a lot of pressure on me to start a consulting business from scratch. And took away a lot of my energy to do Hammerstone stuff, because I felt like all my time needed to go to wrestling up consulting to put food on the table, and, you know, health care and stuff like that. So feeling great about that nice to have the security of a full time job and insurance. And I think the thing on the Hammerstone side that we need to, like we worked on before I went out of town last week was redesigning our whole marketing message to basically be strictly about Laravel Nova. Because I think one of the questions that our friend Mike asked was like, if you had to do it over again, like, what would you do differently? And my answer was, I would just start with Nova, like, that takes away the entire pain point of the front end. He's like, why don't you only focus on Nova right now then? It's like, well, that's interesting. So I think we're almost there. We need to unite need to have another pairing session and finish that. But switching our focus to just selling through Nova I think simplifies our marketing message a whole lot. Because then it's not like, you can add it to whatever you want to do whatever you want. It's like, well, no, it works in Nova and it does this thing do you want it? Because it's also now it's a lot cheaper to so that's kind of where I'm at on my side.

Colleen Schnettler 23:45
Yes. And I tricked you into doing a video so we have that we can put on our

Aaron Francis 23:50
tricks me into doing a video that I thought was really good until you told me today it was really bad. So yeah,

Colleen Schnettler 23:54
no, it's a wonderful video. We'll put the whole seven minutes on the homepage.

Aaron Francis 23:58
We should it's so good. To do a new one that's shorter. No, it's

Colleen Schnettler 24:03
good. It's good. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. I love the I love the Nova potion. I think that'll feel for both of us. I think that's gonna feel I don't know combing. Because it's like, you can customize your front end, this is just exactly matches. And it really gives us the opportunity to lean in to some of the marketing and SEO work we have kind of been tangentially talking about but because we've been so busy with the product work, we haven't had time to get into it. Yeah, so yeah, I'm super excited about that. I think that's gonna be really good. And I think with that we're gonna be able to, you know, see quickly if this is gonna work, right. And and on a super positive note, I feel like I came in here kind of low energy because it's been kind of a crazy week. On a super positive note, now that we have multiple contractors working on refined rails, they've been great and we've really been making huge strides towards me having No less consulting work like huge strides. I feel like in a couple weeks, I'm going to hit this kind of made up October goal of only doing consulting, like here and there a couple hours a day, just, you know, for support. So that's cool. So that I think it's a great fun. Yeah, that's great. Like, I think that move. It's so funny airing because I wasn't gonna hire anyone. And then this person reached out to me. And it's working out so well. So awesome. Yeah, it's working out. So and I don't I don't do technical interviews. I was like, Yeah, you seem like you know, you're doing I'm just gonna hire you. It's going really well. So you probably shouldn't hire like that. That is not hiring advice. But for us, it's working out really well. And I think it's really like in the next month. So like, again, I'm prepping for rail, SAS and there's been a lot that has gone into that, you know, a talk takes a long time to put together. So I think after next week, I'm going to have a lot more time freed up to think about Nova SEO Nova, like really lean into the novice stuff.

Aaron Francis 26:08
Yeah, good, meaty, I think after. So my conference is also next week, right? It is in a foreign country, which is less than ideal. So after that, I feel I feel the same way that I'll be able to focus a little bit more

Colleen Schnettler 26:23
will your next novice stuff. Big talk after that is GitHub universe, right? Yeah.

Aaron Francis 26:29
No, Longhorn PHP is in Austin. The week that we're in Austin. Okay. And then the week after that is GitHub universe?

Colleen Schnettler 26:38
Are those going to be like high preparation talks? Are you going to reuse something you have

Aaron Francis 26:44
Longhorn PHPs should be able to reuse most of what I did for Lera con because it's a database performance talk. GitHub universe is going to be a little more work than I think I anticipated. It's based on on that article that I wrote about publishing your work. So the content is mostly there. But I do need to turn it into a talk and slides. And they are very on top of speaker preparation. I mean, they have a whole outside firm that's handling speaker preparation. Wow.

Colleen Schnettler 27:15
What does that even mean? Do you have someone like check in with you like, can I see Yeah,

Aaron Francis 27:20
yep, I do. I have a due date for my slides. I've got they built a little app with a checklist of all the things that I need to upload. And they have speaker coaching, which I don't think I'll do, but yeah, it's

Colleen Schnettler 27:31
it's legit. Wow, that's exciting.

Aaron Francis 27:35
Yeah, I'm gonna be onstage in San Francisco somewhere.

Colleen Schnettler 27:40
Cool. Yeah, I think I think that timeline works out really well. So we're both speaking next weeks. And after that, we'll get the novice stuff out there. And then we can start pushing on marketing and selling that. And I'm super excited to see how that goes. And also the next couple of months, I'll get our other founding customers on board with refine rails. And we'll just, we'll just iterate like, I think you want to. I think you know it. Yes, it would be great. If like to hit it out of the park, the very first person is like, this is literally the most perfect thing ever. But I would totally argue that if you did that you shipped way too late. I mean, correct. Yeah. That is not like those are the people who never shipped like, Yeah, I hate to say I shipped a product, I'm embarrassed because I wouldn't use the term embarrassed. But I shipped a product that is not as flexible as I would like it to be. And yes, I would love to do

Aaron Francis 28:39
the product that you wanted to continue to work on instead of shipping.

Colleen Schnettler 28:43
Yeah. Yeah. So. So it's really good. And again, all of these people are in, you know, they they know the deal, right? Like we've talked like, we know, I had a pairing call yesterday with one of them. And, you know, he's he's in Europe, so it's late at night there. And he's, you know, a great, such a trooper, but also the early adopters. And we're learning a ton. And everything we can take away from this. We can turn into like a more flexible composable piece of software, which I'm super pumped about.

Aaron Francis 29:16
Yeah, same. I still think once we find it, it's gonna work great. We just gotta find it. Yeah, you know, I think we will.

Colleen Schnettler 29:24
Yeah, I've been thinking of some of these people who I mean, to be fair, they've raised money, but like, there are there is more than one or two people I know who have small businesses who have spent years trying to find the right iteration of what that product looks like. So I know, we're not doing

Aaron Francis 29:44
everything. But of course, then the only people I think of our people like Ben duple they're like, Oh, what if we start a company and we're, we're magically successful? Now. It's like, well, those people also exist and it would be better to be one.

Colleen Schnettler 29:58
It wouldn't be better, especially since we're Bucha. drapped it would be better to be one of those who's so much better would be be much less painful. Yeah, yeah. Okay, anything else? Any other updates?

Aaron Francis 30:11
I don't think so. Yeah. Thanks for having me on the show.

Colleen Schnettler 30:17
Cool. Thanks for coming in and chatting about some of the interesting struggles we we face as we try to find product market fit. I was thinking I should rebrand the podcast like finding product market fit.

Aaron Francis 30:30
Yeah. Why don't want a segment that we should rebrand it to we have found product market fit and then just kind of let the universe work that out. I like

Colleen Schnettler 30:39
it. I like it. Yeah. Yeah. So let's keep, you know, just percolating on ideas. And we'll touch base next week after the conferences. All right. Sounds good. All right. Great. Thanks, Aaron.

Michele Hansen 30:54
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