Colleen Schnettler 0:00
So Michelle, you left us with such a cliffhanger last week, did I? You did. You said, Oh, I have all these things to talk about. And I said, Tell me, and then you said we're out of time. Sorry. So I want to talk about what you have been up to the past six weeks, you have been speaking across the world giving workshops. It has been a summer Europe, Northern Europe. Well, yes. I mean, it's far away for me. Let's talk about it. Tell us

Michele Hansen 0:34
Yeah, so Okay. So I guess the last time we talked was like, middle of June, right, like right events, where I left for conferences. So I went to two conferences in the middle of June, I went to go to all hosts. And then I went to mind the product in Hamburg, which by the way, I kept calling meet the products, which, like, it's so funny. It's like, you know, you can take the girl out of Washington, but you can't take the Washington out of the girl and find the products. So So yeah, so I set out on a midnight train going somewhere at Georgia. No, right. Now, it was it was actually at like one in the afternoon. But it was a journey, and went to all who's so I had the workshop on I think it was Tuesday. So Tuesday was wasn't the first deploy empathy in person customer interview workshop from I think nine to four.

Colleen Schnettler 1:35
It was Oh, that is a long workshop.

Michele Hansen 1:38
It was a an action packed workshop. And I think a long day for all of us. I think it's kind of it's tough to be like engaged in one topic. for that long. Yeah, in a small room. I think it was. I think it was a sort of more challenging, I guess, then than I expected both for like myself and the participants. And so I ended up juggling things around a little bit or kind of like shuffling things. And it was also really small. So it was two participants in the workshop, which, on the one hand, I think was really great, since it was my first long workshop, because I've only done workshops that were meet up length basically. So like, one and a half to three hours at the most. And so I've actually never taught anything for six or seven hours straight. So when can

Colleen Schnettler 2:32
I pause you just so I get some clarity here? So you were in a room with only two people from nine to four?

Michele Hansen 2:39
Yes. Holy cow. I mean, there were breaks and there was lunch and stuff. But yeah,

Colleen Schnettler 2:44
okay. Yeah. A lot of togetherness. Okay, continue on. There was there

Michele Hansen 2:48
was a lot of togetherness. So I think it was good that it wasn't that many people for my first one. On the other hand, I think for future ones, you do need the kind of dynamics and chemistry that happens when you have more people. So I'm doing another workshop at full stack Europe, in Antwerp in Belgium, first week of October. And Francis Collins, co founder will also be there, buy your tickets. And I think I told them, the minimum number of people is six. That seems because I think you just need it, you need a few more people in the room. Because what I was like you don't have all these like prompts throughout it and whatnot. It's like sharing your own experience. And if you've only got two people in the room, that is that is requiring a lot of the participants like sometimes it's like it's totally okay to not want to answer every single question the speaker has, and just listen or zone out. And if there's only two or three people in the room, the participants don't really have that option. So I think that's something I will I mean, that is something I have changed for the future. And then And then so the following day, actually, I had nothing I got to explore all whose I went to an art museum, it was really nice. I had an interview for the conference, like I cut sort of took a very long, leisurely walk to the conference that day, such a cute city had an interview that is going up on YouTube at some point. And then I spoke the following morning. So now this is Thursday. And that went really, really well. I did the talk that I had been calling how to talk. So people will talk which is just basically using all of the tips and tricks from book, though I think I sort of realized as I was sort of giving it that really that talk should be titled before you deploy code deploy empathy. Yeah. Which I heard myself say that and it was like, like, I could just see how that just like clicked. Yeah. So that went really really really really well. And I realized in doing that, that my favorite My favorite part about being conferences is talking to people. There's just this kind of fun friend Khatri energy that comes up when have you stand up in stage, and then people come and talk to you afterwards or at social events or whatnot, because they're also interested in the same topic. Like, I've never had someone come up to me and tell me that they like hated my talk and thought it was terrible, and it didn't belong there. Now, you know, sort of knock on wood here, like, it's gonna happen the next time I give a talk. But like, that's why I do it. That's why I go to conferences and get up stage is to make friends and have those friends come to me rather than me, like awkwardly waiting through through the group at a break or whatever. And I really, I have felt so energized by that. And I realized I didn't really have that same level of energy coming out of the workshop, which is, oh, that's something I'm kind of thinking about and digesting a bit of wherever there in the future, I might maybe focus more on doing talks and less workshops. Now, the thing about workshops is you get paid to do them. So that's nice. But, you know, I also, you know, if someone goes to my talk, and they buy my book, like, you know, I also get paid for that. So, I think it's something I'm still like, chewing on. But I think from there, I don't think I'm going to raise my hand for another all day workshop. Though, after doing that conference, I did get invited to speak at two other conferences. Despite my reading of my own energy levels, I think, I guess, you know, it went well, in the eyes of the audience. Unfortunately, I am unable to go to both of those because of scheduling conflicts, is October a full day? Or? No, it's three hours, three hours. Yeah. And I'm also positioning that one less as talking to customers, and also interviewing clients and stakeholders too, because you know, full stack Europe is, you know, definitely conference aimed at developers. And they may be from a wide variety of kind of industry types, everything from SAS to open source to clients, and or maybe they're, they only have access to internal stakeholders, who then have access to the, to the customers. So it really, really varies. And so that one, I'm going to take a more broad approach about applying the tactics, and teaching people the tactics more in depth, so that they can use them in any context, kind of also how you've been using them a little bit in a sales context. I think making that a bit broader. I intentionally didn't start with here's how you can apply it in sales, because, you know, you teach people the rules first, and then you teach them how to break them. Right. Yeah, but I think I'm going to weave a little bit of that into it too. But I mean, that audience won't, probably won't be doing a lot of sales. I can always adapt it. But But yeah, so that one is going to be three hours. And then I'm also doing the before you deploy code, deploy empathy talk, which is maybe my new nice catch line. I should totally I like it. Should trademark that or whatever, though, man, we just got our JUCO to trademark Whoo. But it took like, two years to get the whole thing done. Wow. So yeah, is

Colleen Schnettler 8:01
that is a process? Yeah.

Michele Hansen 8:02
So So okay, so I gave that talk. This is Thursday morning of that week. And then I had like, half an hour to like, chat with people. And then I had to get on another train. Going to Germany, which was actually so fun. Like on it. Like I just I realized how much I miss traveling. And again, talking to people while traveling. This is like kind of the theme is that I just like to go places and talk to people. Yeah, I mean, it was so fun. So got to Hamburg, literally, like 10 minutes before the speaker dinner. So like rushed, they're all sweaty, had a lot of fun talking to their speakers. And then the next day had my talk, which was not necessarily related to my book. And it was just pure fun. So this was a product audience, which is very different, because the other one was, was pretty much all software developers, and architects. And so I gave a talk on this quote that all product people like viscerally hate, and makes our skin crawl, which is If Henry Ford had talked to customers, they would have told him to build a faster horse. And like, just all of us have had that thrown at us whenever we propose anything remotely related to getting users involved in the process, usually by executives, but it can often be, you know, stakeholders or other people on the team. And so I just gave a talk, just destroying that. And I had an absolute ball doing that. And I think that really came through. And yeah, that was that was just fun. I just really, really had fun and then talk to a lot of people. It was a crazy week, though. I mean, it was away from my family for like, six days because I didn't go home until Saturday afternoon. So from Yeah, from Monday to Saturday, which like, you know, people who are all the McKinsey consultants or whatever out there going, hmm. But that was a lot for me. So I think doing two in one week was probably a bit much but I think it was is helpful because I learned that that's probably too much like two different cities in the same week for me. And also that yeah, my, my energy really comes from talks and from shorter workshops, but also like, I don't know if I would pitch a long talk after this. Like I love getting up there for 1015 2025 minutes. I've never done or No, I actually I have done a 45 minute talk. That's what we did at Lera con in 2017. And this is one of those things where like, if somebody came up to me and offered it to me, I would probably say yes, but I don't know if I would seek it out and pitch something that was like on stage for 45 minutes or an hour, because I just I love the interaction with people. And that's really where I get the most energy from it. And I'm really just in this to make friends. That's awesome. Yeah. So that was that was my my crazy week in June

Colleen Schnettler 10:52
that yeah, I remember coming up to that that was going to be crazy. And then,

Michele Hansen 10:56
and then there was a couple of weeks in between. And then we went on vacation for a couple of weeks in the US, which was fantastic. And I disconnected more than I have in the past. I didn't entirely disconnect. But, you know, I only opened my laptop every other day, or maybe every third day, rather than opening it every day is pretty good. Which is pretty good for me. Like that's yeah, that's pretty good. Because I checked my email every day, but just because it's on my phone and intercom but then actually doing things like and I felt like such a slacker to and which he was like it's completely fine. Like you don't actually have anything you have to like, do right now. That's urgent. I was like I know, but like, feel like I should just be putting in a couple of hours like and I yeah, I felt like such a slacker. But I actually did, you know, disconnect a bit and had days I didn't work and got to enjoy it. And while we were there, we got to meet with our new employee who started on July 1, which was awesome to get together with him in person. Yes, he used to work with Matias so Mateus knows him really well. But I had, I think I had like met him like very, very briefly once or twice because the company they used to work at used to host the jobs to be done meetup that I was a leader of when we ran that like I don't know, five years ago, six years ago at this point. So I probably ran into him. But we didn't really remember each other. So it was really nice to sit down. And actually we chatted at our old haunts. Northside social which coffee shop we used to meet at every week. Before. Wow, I haven't been there. I know. And so it was really nice to go back there and reminisce on those beautiful pre COVID days when we just sat in a coffee shop together for a few hours until our parking ran out chatting about business and life and everything else.

Unknown Speaker 12:58
Oh, my goodness, if they only knew, which is right. Yeah. So now I'm back.

Colleen Schnettler 13:05
So let's go back to talk about these conference talks. Okay, you said something to me, or I think you said something to me, which was, you had always not want to say always, but you had wanted to be in a position where people invited you to speak at conferences. But now that they are inviting you to speak at conferences, you realize that maybe speaking at conferences all the time, isn't what you want to do. Yes. Did you say something like that? Okay, sorta, let's expand on that.

Michele Hansen 13:33
I mean, so I remember like, I mean, going back, like, I probably started applying to speak at conferences and like, 2015 or so like, and this is mostly like product conferences. Yeah. And I would apply for stuff like once a month, and it was always rejected, like, and this was, you know, you, you send a pitch and like, an outline and everything else. And yeah, my talks were always rejected. And I was doing a lot of blogging for a while to, like I wrote on medium, which now seems like a long time ago. And so I thought I was building like a little speaking. I don't know, person, like I was trying to build a personal brand, because I thought that was what you should do. That's why I was blogging and trying to do conference talks. And yeah, they just got rejected every time. And if I was, like, if I was lucky, I would get an email saying was rejected, but more often than not, I just never heard anything. So initially, it was to like, kind of build a personal brand, because people tell people who are employed that they should do that. Yeah, for in case they need to find a new job. And then I, you know, made my own job and didn't need to do that anymore. But it was like that I was working from home and it's like you don't actually if you're speaking up on stage, like people come and talk to you and they're pretty much guaranteed to be interested and at least one similar thing as you and so I realized they were a great friend catcher to borrow the Patrick McKenzie word. So that's what got me into speaking and it was, and I think that was actually how because it was less about having, I think, for me like the idea of like building a personal brand both felt very nebulous, and it was kind of like, Why do I want to do that? Like, I didn't have any intrinsic reason for wanting to do that. That's probably why I fell flat on my face pitching talks for so long. But yeah, so I just so I have this goal, it's like, okay, like, if I get up on stage, then people will come talk to me, I don't have to stand there awkwardly on the side of the social happy hour thing, just like with nobody to talk to you. Because I will do that. Like, okay, despite the fact that I love to talk to people, if I go to an event, and I don't know, anyone, I will not talk to anyone I understand, like, so I needed to give, like, I needed to give people a reason to talk to me. So I started doing that. And then yeah, and sort of writing the book and podcast, everything, I sort of accidentally built a personal brand, but not very consciously or intentionally. And people have been inviting me to things. And I also, you know, put it out there that I wanted to be speaking to things and got invitations. And I want to keep speaking of things, absolutely. But I think maybe like doing it all the time. Like, you know, like I met some people there who were you know, they're going off to another conference the following week. And they are they had to the following week or three The following week, or like, and I don't know if this is a post COVID thing. But like, people who are basically doing weeks on end of being at conferences, I don't want to do that. Like, if I ever need to go get a job, like Developer Relations, and going to conferences all the time would be a terrible job for me. So I think probably finding some sort of balance, and you know, going a couple times a year, or every other month or something, and giving talks, then is probably a good balance for me. But doing two in a week or doing you know, for in two weeks, or some of these other schedules I heard from people is probably not for me, like being like a professional speaker, and basically, quitting God, or just being a speaker and an author, I don't, that's not for me, I really missed kind of being in the trenches and not talking to anyone for six hours.

Colleen Schnettler 17:08
So let's see, to recap, you run a multimillion dollar company, you have published a book, and now you are a world famous speaker. What's next for you, Michelle?

Michele Hansen 17:19
Ah, doing less of things, actually. Yeah, this I want to talk about this. Tell me? Yeah. So I mean, I've been thinking a lot about how, you know, I have worked stuff, which is both geocode do and then work, I create my for myself, which is the book and this podcast, and people inviting me to speak at their team meeting and kind of everything else that I loosely classify as work. And then there's life stuff. And there's also, you know, I have the added complication of being in language school, which I'm hopefully done with in December. Oh, I

Colleen Schnettler 17:51
hope so. I know, that's been a lot.

Michele Hansen 17:53
But also, I was in business school from 2017 to 2020. So I realized recently that there is actually only one year, I have been working full time on JUCO do have the past five years where I was not in school of some sort. Okay, and yeah, I mean, I kind of like thinking about my own priorities and trying to do so sort of brutally honestly, that like, you know, first comes sort of family life, right, you know, making sure that our daughter is at school and you know, spending time with her and getting dinner on the table and all that you know, just sort of the basics of making life function. And then there's work and all of the things I loosely define as work which some of which are actually side projects that I give the same priority as actual work and then yeah, and then I have my sort of my my life management I don't know what did we want to call this my like overhead of like, language school and all that other stuff going on. And there's also like my health involved in this and I looked back and basically realized that I'm kind of doing a first of all, I basically not taking care of my health very much like aside from sort of getting my mental health sorted out, you know, final and ADHD meds on the right one, like that's my mental health is actually in a really good place. My physical health is not because I basically I was like, Oh my God, but with everything going on, I don't have time to go to the gym or bike with my daughter to school and back, like, I just don't like I don't have time, because I've completely fell by the wayside. And then everything else I'm basically doing, you know, at a half burner, using that burners metaphor. And I don't think that like doing a bunch of things kind of mediocre LY is not really going to work. Yeah, like there's also the fact like I have to pass my fluency exam in December like I have more time but I'm on schedule for that right now. So if I like I could focus on this coming you know, this fall then I can be done which would be amazing. And then I also I need to have more family time right like our daughter's only a little kid for so long, right? You know, she's only under our roof for so long. So I think I need to reach also some priorities. And also, you know, we have we've talked a little bit about how living in Europe with US customers, and a family means that like, everything is basically shouting at you come three o'clock in the afternoon, like just everything is happening at the same time. And like, it's all very condensed, and it's so it's like, she's home from school, there's pickup, there's activities, customer stuff is happening, if I have to have a phone call that happens at a minimum, you know, at three o'clock, sometimes two, if someone is an early riser, and will meet with me at eight, and they're on the East Coast, dinner to be made, you know, just like, it's just everything is happening at the same time. Yep. And I just I really struggle with those hours between three and seven. Yeah. So I think I need to, I think I need to pull back on sort of side project. He stuff like I, you know, I'm project D stuff, what do you hold the book, and like, oh, being on podcast, and by the way, so you set a goal for me of being on 20 podcasts to promote the book. And I will have, you know, that I did that aired. But I have done it, and I am checking that box. And if somebody invites me to be on their podcast, I will do it. But I'm gonna stop seeking it out, at least for now. Because I do not have time. I think this is kind of what it's coming down to is like, we do this podcast together, I can make time for that. But like, I mean, I wish I had more time to talk to our customers to like, quite frankly, I feel like I spend more time talking about talking to customers than I actually spend talking to customers. And that really doesn't sit right with me. Yeah. And it's also you know, it's a source of motivation and inspiration and a reminder of why we do what we do. And how lucky we are to do that and who we do it for. And it's a really important part of my, my work, I think, just as a founder in general. Yeah. keeps us from stagnating, you know, keeps us close to the ground. And if I'm squeezing in my time with, you know, doing podcast appearances for basically my side project, and then also trying to juggle family and life and everything else on top of that in that same four hour time frame every afternoon. Like, there's not a lot of time.

Colleen Schnettler 22:17
That's what's so hard about it too, is it's like three to seven. That's such a bad like, oh, yeah, that sounds hard.

Michele Hansen 22:23
Yeah. So I think I need to pull back on promoting the book for a while, like, the thing is, is if I can focus on language hold that I can be done in December. I can go back to doing that in January, right like most times when people invite me to go on their podcast it's usually scheduled at least a month or two out anyway. I'm we're going to Belgium for full sec. Europe actually just booked our plane tickets today. Now, I convinced Matias to go with me. So great. We're excited. Yeah. Oh, and I guess I'm I'm, yeah, I'm also doing something in November with me. But yes, but other than that, I don't think I have any other work travel going on. Okay. And yeah, not gonna seek out like, also. So this thing, like, I realized that I get all this energy from getting up on stage. And, you know, having people come up to me and meeting people that way. Do not get the same energy from doing zoom talk. Like zoom talks are just draining with none of the front catcher benefits. Yeah, like, it's just taking up time. And it usually has to be scheduled at a time that works for quote, unquote, everybody, which means US East Coast and US West Coast, which is a time the does not work for me usually, like it's very often, like 9pm my time. So I, I might either start declining zoom invitations, or I mean, or being very, very selective about zoom opportunities, because it's just yet it's just, it's just draining. Yeah. And I guess I'm at the point where now I can start saying no to things. I think that's kind of scary for me because I am so used to being rejected for things that to say no to something. There's this very loud part of me that's like, but if you say no, they're, they're gonna, like hate you. And they're never going to invite you ever again. Like and all of a sudden, the universe will turn against you and you will never have any speaking ever again. Which is like, not true. I am not, you know, like canceling myself by saying sorry, I'm unable to attend. But you know, there's definitely like that, that fear there, right? Or it's just like, Oh, don't worry, I feel like ungrateful, right. Because for so long, this is what I wanted to. to do. And then to say no to it feels really, really weird. But yeah, I think I think I need to down prioritize all of these, you know, side projects, engagements, businesses that have honestly brought me a lot of joy over the past couple of years and just kind of, I don't know, put my head down and focus on life of it, like be a bit quieter. You know, I'm not fully going in this direction. But I think part of it really kind of gets why Paul Jarvis, the founder of Fathom is, you know, so quiet on the internet and, you know, often delete his Twitter account, and then we'll come back for a few days and then delete it again. And this keeps a very low profile after writing a book, like, everyone has been very kind to me, but that kind of, yeah, sometimes you just kind of want to disappear and be a little bit anonymous after being very public about something. Yeah, I like I just, I just really get it and I'm not going fully in that direction. I definitely respect it understand why, why he has, to the extent he has publicly said so of course. But yeah, like, it kind of was like, I mean, I just kind of want to like work a little bit and, and not be as much of a presence sort of all over the place.

Colleen Schnettler 25:49
That sounds like a great plan, at least for

Michele Hansen 25:51
now. I think that's what I need, at least because still December, I need to focus on your school. And I need to get myself back in the gym. And I think I don't think we have time for this today. But like, I need to talk to you about how you actually like, fit it in your life. Like, because it's like, I'm like, Well, if I workout in the morning, like then I have to shower but like, I have to build in that time for it. Or like what if I just don't shower in the morning? But then I have to like, it's just feels complicated. Or it's like do you not shower? Or like when do you do your hair? Like, do you just not do your hair? Do you not have makeup on? Like, I don't know, like, can you work out when your kids are home? Should you only do it during work hours? Like do you wake up at six? You're like,

Colleen Schnettler 26:29
what if you're, like complicating this feels to me like I feel like it is complicated,

Michele Hansen 26:33
though. Like finding time for life and at work and family and yourself and like finding to fit all of those things in especially when you are the lowest priority is very hard.

Colleen Schnettler 26:47
Oh, man, I have fights on this.

Michele Hansen 26:52
I mean, honestly, no, I want to hear that. Okay, screw it, we'll go a little bit long. I need to hear this. Because this is like what I'm trying to figure out right now. First,

Colleen Schnettler 27:00
I want to beach, I want to take a bat and beat you over the head with this. You've Michelle, yay, you have made it. You need to chill out, right? Like you have like you define success from a business if you look just at a business perspective. So one, working 12 hours a day, 10 hours a day should no longer be necessary. Take that out, though, even if you hadn't made it. Okay. Even if you were like, you can rest on your laurels though. No, like course not. But But again, you run a multimillion dollar business with one employee like you should be able to solve this problem. But anyway, let's take that out of here. Okay, let's say you haven't made it you're making $1,500 a month like me, even in that position. You should not you just said when you are the last priority, you should not be the last priority. Because if you are not healthy and well, your whole family is going to fall apart. You are the nucleolus of your family. And your family as you told me earlier is the most important thing. You look like you don't believe me?

Michele Hansen 28:07
Well, I believe you but it's like when do I find this is what I try to get right is like should I like so it? Should I be getting up at six and then somehow squeezing in a workout before getting her out the door? She we have to leave for school at 730 Yeah, so

Colleen Schnettler 28:21
you have to leave earlier than we do. So what we do, but there's two of you know, this is this should be totally manageable. I

Michele Hansen 28:27
have three kids, is it okay for me to not be present? Here's what I do. Let me maybe I have so much guilt. Because I was in like business school for so long. It had some issues. I feel like I always have to know I do have

Colleen Schnettler 28:38
some issues, honey, Okay, listen. I get up at six no one else in my family is up at six o'clock. I get up at six. I physically leave the house before anyone else wakes up. So no one can stop me. And I'm gone. Like my workout class is 630 to 730. The kids have to leave his for school at 740 I get home at like 735 My husband gets them ready for school. I mean, she's as old as my kids so she can probably get herself ready for school. Right? All my kids can get themselves ready for school. Yeah. So that she can have a list. You know, on the fridge. We have one of those magnet things with all of their tasks in the morning. They get up. They do all their chores. They pack their lunch, and they go to school. They pack their own lunches. That's Ella Yeah, they pack their own lunches. Dude, you have your kids so well. Yeah, well, there's three of them. So you have to

Michele Hansen 29:30
this sounds like I have no excuses. Because you have three kids and somehow find like time to work out and devote to yourself and I have one. But you seem to have

Colleen Schnettler 29:41
some feeling of like unnecessary guilt. You're carrying around like you can't be you don't need to be there in the morning. Matias can get her ready. There's two

Michele Hansen 29:50
of you. I mean, I guess actually when when we were in Arlington, I was going to 6am workout classes three days a week and that was working out really well. But now I live in the countryside and you

Colleen Schnettler 30:00
Can't you can't assume that that's the problem doesn't exist. So whether you

Michele Hansen 30:04
like I could do like 6am spinning or something,

Colleen Schnettler 30:07
I would just try something. I mean, just to get yourself back on that yet, but like, I've been incredibly consistent this year. And I think, for me, it's the get up at six, get out of the house, you know, put your clothes out the night before get out of the house before anyone wakes up, and they can't stop, you. Just go. And sometimes I get home, like in the beginning when I started doing this, because, you know, we were having, you know, there's a little shift with my husband getting them ready versus me getting ready. And there's things Nick does that I would never do. But you have to let that go. Like you just have to let it be like, he lets Ella wear long sleeves when it's 80 degrees out. That's fine. Like they can sort that out. Like you can't be so. I don't know. Perfectionist, right? Like he packs her the same lunch every single day. Does she eat it? Yeah. But I never did that. Right. I was like, Oh, the kids have to have like, they have to have special new lunches. Every day. They don't, they can eat the same thing every day.

Michele Hansen 31:03
You actually are like, our daughter pretty much eats the same thing every day. She's a Danish kid. So she eats Right? Right. Okay, let's eat on it.

Colleen Schnettler 31:10
I'm just I think it's so here's what what it is. So 6am is your if I don't do it at 6am I'm not gonna do it. And you don't have to do it every day. But honestly, I just think it would be so good for you, you would feel so good. If you got into the habit. And I don't know, again, there's two adults and one kid. So I don't know why you can't do this math is

Michele Hansen 31:31
in our paper, I don't understand. It is not in yours. And you still make I

Colleen Schnettler 31:36
don't understand why you can't do this. I think this should be a priority for you this and language school from now until December should be your priorities.

Michele Hansen 31:41
And then I basically need to like, show up for work, basically. And, you know, just I mean,

Colleen Schnettler 31:48
and also you wash your hair way to work. Let me teach you about hair.

Unknown Speaker 31:52
Care way too much. How often do you

Colleen Schnettler 31:55
wash your hair every three to four days?

Michele Hansen 31:57
Okay, this, this is a conversation we're having offline because I do not understand and I will not, I will not bore all of our male listeners with discussion of how often we wash our hair. But I probably washed my hair way too much. And I also have like, so when I started working, I started out in a web development agency. And this is also in DC, which is a you know, very sort of conservative office dress code wise. And we had to be basically, like a client could stop by at any time. And so we always had to be presentable. And so this like idea that you were always presentable. And that above you know, like that, that is like the top priorities that you are presentable. And then, you know, you can cover your shoulders at any with a minute's notice. Because DC Yeah, seriously. Cover your shoulders, heels, nylons. Yeah, even when it's 100 degrees outside. And you know, and then I went to work, you know, and I'm more of a tech company after that, and basically just, I think wore jeans and a T shirt, like for the entire year almost as a revolt a little bit. But I think I still have a little bit that where it's like, oh, if I have to have a call with a customer that, you know, thanks. No thanks to zoom are all on video now where they used to be phone calls and like, hashtag return to phone calls are amazing. And I didn't have to do my hair. Like I always have to be presentable now. And so it's like, if I wanted to do something where it's like, okay, I don't shower, just, you know, everybody gets out the door, I work and then I try to work out at like, I don't know, five or six, eight o'clock or whatever. That doesn't work, because I haven't done my hair and makeup. And like, I like you know, like there's just that, that pressure to be presentable. And I don't know if that's reasonable. If that's just like my likes, I feel like our first jobs really shape how we think about companies, everything from organization to how how we dress, right, like you started out in government contracting, right? Yeah.

Colleen Schnettler 34:04
Yeah. So yes, we also I mean, we didn't, yeah, we also had to be presentable at that job.

Michele Hansen 34:12
Yeah, so I don't know if I've just clung to that too much. But then again, I'm the company founder. So like, I don't know, maybe maybe I am overthinking all this or maybe I'm just actually I think I'm thinking about it and I am sort of trying to challenge it and figure out why is it that I feel like I can't

Colleen Schnettler 34:30
I mean there's nothing wrong with that right if you'd like to get dressed and do your hair and makeup but I'm saying you can work out

Michele Hansen 34:35
it's no it takes up so much time. Yeah, like okay. The hair and makeup is done. Like I have to like make sure it's preserved for the for until whatever I have some meeting or something and then I can do something but like there's no time to take two showers today. Like my husband will take two showers in a day. Sometimes on the weekend. Like if we do a lot of yard work or like wake up shower, yard work and then shower and I'm like, I don't have like three hours in a day. Need to like shower get dressed makeup hair twice in a day like not happen.

Colleen Schnettler 35:03
Okay, here's what I think. I don't think it's as hard. I think you get out the door at six. You work out for an hour, whether it's go for a bike ride, go for a run, go to a gym, whatever. You're back at 730 Matias gets your daughter to school, you shower and you're at your desk by 8am.

Michele Hansen 35:21
Yeah, I should, I should try to have to get my butt to sleep at nine in order to make that happen, which I had not been good about. So

Colleen Schnettler 35:30
I had to go to sleep at 10. But yeah, I feel like I feel like this is going to work for you. I feel like it'd be a little bit of an adjustment, but I think it's gonna work. I think you should try it.

Michele Hansen 35:39
Okay, so am I gonna, like, do that thing where we like, I commit to this. And then a month from now you asked me how it's going. And then I've actually done that what's happened now is it to you? Right? I mean, having a functional vessel that my brain lives and I guess it's

Colleen Schnettler 35:55
important. Yes. Your body is part of your your person. Like to take care of it.

Michele Hansen 36:03
Yeah, you know, as we're talking now, I'm like looking almost wistfully at my trampoline. So maybe I should get out there on this beautiful but

Colleen Schnettler 36:12
I agree you can't do it in the middle of the day because of the shower problem. I do agree with that. Like,

Michele Hansen 36:16
because it screws up my hair. Yeah, blue in the middle that I got it.

Colleen Schnettler 36:19
That's why it looks wet. So I do it in the morning. Because then there's one shower. I don't know you're talking about two showers. No one has time for that. You do the one shower in the morning after you workout. And then you're good. Yeah. All right. So that sounds great coming to me.

Michele Hansen 36:32
Yep. Yep. And then, you know, and I think last fall, I was really trying to art last fall and spring I like the days I had language school because it's basically all day, Monday, Friday, I was trying to not work the rest of that day. And instead it said spend time with her daughter. And so I you know, like language schools half an hour, 35 minutes away. So I would leave at eight and then get back at like three. But I was so fried at that point that I couldn't. And so I've actually been wondering, it's like maybe what I could do is, so get up on those days shower, put workout clothes on, which I know that's very normal in the US to walk around and workout clothes, it is not here like people do not do that, like athleisure is not a not a thing. Like it is extremely American in the way that were 30 years ago, wearing jeans would have been like, wearing your workout clothes, even if they're like nice Lulu workout clothes. Not I think also, Lulu isn't a thing. So, but I might do that anyway, like my classes, all people from other countries, whatever. And then try to work out after language school, clear my head a little bit and then try to just knock out one or two hours of email and stuff. Because like, I feel like I like because our daughter gets out of school so early, I feel like I have to be like, having quality time with her at that point, when in reality, she's fried for being in school all day. And most parents work from like, nine to five, or you know, eight to four. And so it's like, I might be putting too much pressure on myself to try to be having quality time at three o'clock in the afternoon, when most parents are working at that point. And kids just, you know, want to be reading a book or watching TV or hanging out with their friends. So I think I'm going to try to stop putting pressure on myself to turn those afternoons into quality time and just work out and work. And then hopefully everybody's refreshed by dinnertime.

Colleen Schnettler 38:28
Yeah, sounds good. It's I mean, it just you just need to try things, right. You don't know what's going to work for your life. What works for my life is probably not going to work for you. But I think it can be done. And you've been talking about this for a long time. Since October. We talked about this when we went to founder Summit. And this is like August. Yeah, we're almost a year in so like, it's it's a good plan. Like just try things and figure out what works?

Michele Hansen 38:51
I think so. And I think it's just been such a challenge for such a long time that it's hard to what is that phrase from atomic habits to stop motion versus action. And I never remember which one is which. But like thinking about something is not doing like you need to just actually do it. But like with all of these different variables going on. I think my brain kind of like swims a bit. Sure, just sort of just sort of I'm like ddossing myself with all of these requests on my time. Yeah,

Colleen Schnettler 39:21
it makes total sense. I think that makes total sense. I feel that way all the time about other stuff, so I totally get it.

Michele Hansen 39:28
I think this has been enough about me for one

Colleen Schnettler 39:30
day. I'm digging it man. I'm having a great time.

Michele Hansen 39:37
I think it is that time of the show where we say thanks to people?

Colleen Schnettler 39:42
Let's do it.

Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at softwaresocial.dev/supporters

Chris from Chipper CI
The Daringly Handsome Kevin Griffin
And Mike from Gently Used Domains, who has a nice personality
Dave from Recut
Max of OnlineOrNot
Stefan from Talk to Stefan
Brendan Andrade of Bright Bits
Team Tuple
Alex Hillman from The Tiny MBA
Ramy from Memo.fm
Jane and Benedikt from Userlist
Kendall Morgan
Ruben Gamez of SignWell
Corey Haines of SwipeWell
Mike Wade of Crowd Sentry
Nate Ritter of Room Steals
Anna Maste of Subscribe Sense
Geoff Roberts from Outseta
Justin Jackson, MegaMaker
Jack Ellis and Paul Jarvis from Fathom Analytics
Matthew from Appointment Reminder
Andrew Culver at Bullet Train
John Kostor
Alex of Corso Systems
Richard from Stunning
Josh,the annoyingly pragmatic founder
Ben from Consent Kit
John from Credo and EditorNinja
Cam Sloan

Michael Koper of Nusii Proposals

Chris from Urlbox
Caeli of Tosslet
Greg Park from TraitLab
Adam from Rails Autoscale
Lana and Alex from Recapsy
Joe Masilotti of railsdevs.com
Proud MaMa from Oplnet, LLC
Anna from Kradl
Moncef from Ruby on Mac
Steve of Be Inclusive
Simon Bennett of SnapShooter Backups
Josh Smith of Keyhero.io

Arvid Kahl
James Sowers from Castaway.fm
Nathan of Develop Your UX
Jessica Malnik
Damian Moore of Audio Audit Podcast Checker
Eldon from NodleStudios
Mitchell Davis from RecruitKit

Michele Hansen 41:34
Just warms my heart. It's fun. I guess I want to mention that if we're saying your name or your company name wrong, please tell us your thoughts are not going to be offended. I just realized I think we actually pronounced some of those names differently. Oh, no. And I don't know which is correct. Sorry that that laugh is because one of Collins sons is sneaking up on her right now. If we're saying your name wrong, please tell us and and also, if anyone else wants to do some sort of challenge where you do something that you have been thinking about way too much but not actually doing for the past year. And then we'll check in on it in a month. Let me know if you want to join me so it's not a solo request. We'll see you next week.