The Water Bowl of Sorrow

Colleen's launch doesn't go quite as hoped.

Michele: Colleen.

I am dying to know how
the Refine launch went.

Colleen: Okay.

First of all, let's not call it a launch
because it wasn't really a launch.

It was

Michele: Letting people
know they can buy it things.

Colleen: Right.

So it went poorly.

Michele: No.

Colleen: But I don't think that,
I don't want to say poorly.

I don't know if that's the right word.

It was a good step in the right
direction, but we did not get any

sales based off of that email.

Michele: Did you get any
sales after that email?

So how many sales have you had?

Colleen: I want to say five total
over the course of the product.

So we didn't get any, and all
five of those people like had

found us on Twitter, or knew us.

So we did not get any stranger money.

Michele: Oh, um, I've been like bingeing
hammerstone don't podcast this week.

Um, I feel so bad we haven't been able
to make that recording happened by

the way, like we have, so slammed.

And like, I was just
talking to Mathias earlier.

It's like, yeah, like where are
we going to do that this week?

And he's like, yeah, I can
like no, we can do that.

And I was like, but it isn't it going
to take, several hours to deploy it.

And we're in the middle of a
massive server migration and like,

and it was like, oh yeah, I guess
so, so it was like, okay, so maybe

next week we're going to do it.


Colleen: I think here's what
I think the deal is Michelle.

I think that our primary
product is not for Nova.

And we have created the Nova integration
for people like you and we have another

Nova client, but ultimately, you know,
Aaron and I talked a little bit about

this on the hammer stone podcast,
which hasn't come out yet, which is why

you haven't heard it, but ultimately
the way Laravel does its pricing.

So, I guess the way Taylor prices
Nova and other Laravel software

packages is he has a huge reach.

So things are very, very inexpensive.

And so there is a theory.

We have a theory that like Laravel
Bell devs expect really, really good

software to be really, really cheap.

And so Nova is only $300, once.

So for us to come in on top of that
with no marketing with just, hey, we're

nice, you should buy our software and to
price it at a thousand dollars annually.

I think that's a hard sell for
people that don't have this pain

point or they don't, it doesn't
feel incredibly painful to them.

And I think a lot of that
too is on me and Aaron.

We got something out there to get
something out there, but we didn't do,

we didn't do any kind of drip emails.

We didn't do any kind of marketing emails.

And our landing page is so much better
than it was, but people are still confused

when they go to our landing page in
terms of like what the product does.

So, what I'm trying to say is of
course it was a disappointment.

Like, wouldn't it have been amazing, if
we sent one email and got five sales.

We sent one email and got zero sales.

Of course that's a disappointment,
but it's just, it's just the

foot off the block, right?

This is just the starting point.

Michele: So something in there that
I think, dive into a bit more because

I don't, I think I disagree with
you that this is something specific

to Laravel developers, but you said
something in there that I think is worth

exploring, which is that for people
who do not experience this problem or

who don't regularly experience this
problem, it's too expensive, which is

a broadly applicable concept, right?

Like this is when we're talking about,
you know, customer interviews, like

talk to the people who have a frequent
and painful, who experienced that

problem frequently and painfully.


Because if you try to sell me
something, even if it's amazing,

but I don't experience that problem.

Or I experience it once a year for 10.

I'm just not going to buy
something to solve it because

it's not a problem in my life.

And so I think it's less that like
people who use Laravel are not used

to paying a high price for that.

Like, by the way, the way I read his
pricing is that it's like, there's very

much an element of agency's baked into
that and like freelance developers who,

it's only $300 per site, but if you're
a freelance developer, who's building,

you know, 12 sites a year or more, or
an agency that adds up really quickly.


They're just not necessarily
paying for it themselves.

I don't know.

I guess we should just ask Taylor
what his pricing philosophy is, uh,

rather than trying to guess it, but.

But, yeah.

So I think it's maybe a question of
you just haven't found the people that

experience it, like painfully enough and
like, you know, I like you and Aaron were

talking on the hammer stone podcast about
how, managers probably experienced this,

the general problem of like, I would
rather buy a tool than have my developers

spend 20 hours building something.

Then the developers who were like, oh, I
could just spend a week working on that.

No problem.

And so I know your, your Laravel
list is like mostly people

from Aaron's Lara con talk.


And so I wonder if this list is just
mostly those developers who, look

at that and say, oh, I could do that
myself and not their managers who are

like, yeah, I'm sure you could do that,
but I need you doing other things.

So I'm just going to pay a
thousand bucks and then we're good.

Can you just deploy this please?


Like, I that's, what I wonder is going on.

Colleen: Well, and I think there
might be another aspect too,

whereas Nova is an admin dashboard.

So I think I can hypothesize
that most of Nova uses internal.

Whereas, if you have a public
facing site and you need filtering.

And so if it's internal, maybe
you're not doing it that often,

or you know how to write SQL.

So you just write your SQL or whatever.

Michele: I mean, I'm in Nova.

I have by basically constantly
have a Nova tab open.

I'm using it all the time during the day.

And I do not, not know how to write SQL.

So neither of what you
just said is true for me.

And I bet you.

Colleen: I take it back then.

Michele: And I know you and I like you,
and that influenced my decision, but

it was also like, Hey, like I could
just quickly look this up and not

go have to like use metabase suite.

Colleen: Sweet.

And I think you're right.

I think that list we have, like, it's
a good list, but also those might

not be the people that are buying.

And we have people
interested on the rail side.

I think we're going to do a proper
or kind of like a bigger deal launch

when the laravel total thing, not
just the Nova integration, but we'll

like when the Laravel of L thing
is done, which is like in a month.

So I think what I'm trying to
say is, is, yeah, we didn't, we

didn't knock it out of the park.

We didn't even like hit it to
first base, but the process of

forcing ourselves to do this.

You know we launched the landing page.

We got tons of feedback.

We have this time to really work on our
copy and our site and to really work

on how we are going to present this.

Like, what is the elevator
pitch for this thing?

I think the next couple of
weeks, Aaron and I are really

going to drill down into that.

And so hopefully when it's done in a
month, and we do another launch for

Laravel and we're going to do a bigger
deal launch when we do it for Laravel,

we will find more interested in.

Michele: You know what to
extend that baseball metaphor.

My apologies to all of our European
listeners who are going to have

no idea what I'm talking about.

It wasn't a home run.

It wasn't a first base.

It was kind of a strikeout, but
this was a foul ball strike out.

You were like, there was effort, there was
genuine effort and learnings from this.


You've learned things from it.

You didn't just stand there and look at
the balls at, went by three times, right?

Like you were actually up there
giving this a solid effort and you

have been learning things from it.

And I think you can, I think that
is a very respectable strike out.

Colleen: I think what's
frustrating though.

Michelle is we felt like we felt
that, of the market and maybe the

pull is Laravel, it's not Nova.

Like we knew Nova was a special
integration, but I think, I mean,

we're definitely disappointed.

Michele: Yeah.

Colleen: However, this is the game, right?

Like this is what happens.

It is so rare, for people to just
have a magical, like they send an

email and it's flying off the shelves.

Like I think we have a great product.

I think people want this product.

I think where we have failed and
what we are trying to do better is

communicate the value of this product.

And I think once we can figure that
out, this is going to be, this is

going to be the thing, like it's
going to be really successful.

Um, But of course, like, yeah, of
course you just want it to work

with, without putting too much work

Michele: That'd be nice, right?

Colleen: Wouldn't that be

Michele: I mean, I think you need to
be better at communicating the value of

it to the people that would value it.

Colleen: Yes, I agree.

And that is the challenge.

How do you do that?

And I think we're going to write up
some like case studies of how you

can use this tool, you know, make your
life better, do certain like really

specific things, but yeah, absolutely.

And honestly, once the, once we were able
to get together, um, and actually, you

know, and help you guys integrate it.

and I can't wait, I still can't wait to
get your feedback on that because I think

that's going to be really instructive
in terms of like how much time it's

going to save you once it's in a.

Michele: Honestly, it was
like, we've struggled to figure

out how to do that meeting.

Cause it was like, I was like talking
to Mathias about it and he's like, so

they just, watch me write some code and
terminal, and then we're all going to

sit there for three hours as it deploys.

Colleen: Right.

Can't you just install it
locally so we can show you how it

Michele: yeah, I mean,
that's what we considered was

installing it just on staging.

Um, actually we have to install it
on staging anyway, um, because we

can't show you our customer data.

I'm sorry.

I love you.

But you know, contracts, I need to
abide by and like, you know, privacy, I

need the respect, um, that whole thing.

So I could, we could install it on
staging, but then in order for you

to get like a genuine, like, oh my
gosh, wow, this is so cool reaction

out of me, Like I need to actually
be using it with production data.

And also we need to make sure that,
like, it doesn't overtax our databases.

And I accidentally run a really
expensive query in terms of computing.

And, I don't want to accidentally like,
take something down, which is like

something we worry about with meta base.

It's like, don't query this database like,
you know, so, um, yeah, we ha we actually,

we were talking about that the other day
and we have to figure it out, and Yeah.

No, like I really want to make
that happen, but then it ended

up being really complicated once
we actually thought it through.

But we will find a way
to make that happen.

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: We were like, maybe
like, we can like record ourselves

as we install it and then

Colleen: Well, it doesn't have
to be video either, right?

Like more than anything,
we just want your feedback.

I mean, even if you're like, we can't
meet, we're just going to do it ourselves.

Michele: Yeah.

Colleen: But we can help you.

Like, if you're worried about taking
down a database, like you have a query in

the past, that's taken down a database.

I mean, we can advise you on.

Michele: Yeah.


I need to, we basically need to make sure
there's like safeguards on our end so

that we, uh, yeah, so we have to think
about, and it's been, it's been busy.

So the other thing you said on Hammerstone
podcasts that I wanted to ask about, and

so you said that you need to sell what?

30, 40, 50 licenses a month in order to

Colleen: No, wait, keep going.

Michele: in order to support
you being full-time in August

Colleen: No five licenses a month.

Michele: Okay.

No, you need 30,000 a month was, or no.

Why am I thinking about 30 of something?


I don't

Colleen: I have no idea why you're

Michele: It is.

It is late in the day and we're
going to blame it on that.


You need five licenses a month.

Colleen: Yes.

Michele: to support you
being full-time in August.

Colleen: Yeah.

Michele: Considering this launch that
you just had, how are you feeling about

the achievability of that by August?

Colleen: I still feel good about it.

Michele: You do.

Colleen: Which seems totally out of sync
with the reality of what just happened.

Michele: You're like your spirit
animal is a golden retriever

like of, so I would like,

Colleen: You're so sweet.

Michele: I would kind of expect that to
you, but I would also expect you to, I

mean, you said you were disappointed, but
like you're, so you're still like, you're

still feeling like that's achievable.

Colleen: Yeah, I don't think
this is a signal of anything bad.

I think this is just, I think
what we learned is we have

got to work on our copy.

We have got to work on our marketing.

I think we have low, to your point,
this list is probably developers

who are interested in the tech.

What I have found talking to a lot
of people is usually the decision

person on this is someone who is a
manager because they think of time

value differently than a developer.

And the pricing is weird.

It's out of sync for Nova.

I mean, people, I get that.

I don't have any, I'm not
worried about it at all.

I mean, asked me in a month
after we've launched Laravel for,

Laravel like just the straight up
Laravel and we'll see where we are.

Michele: Is that the product
name Laravel for Laravel.

Colleen: Laravel for Laravel.

Speaking of product name, we
should talk about that next

because people are super confused.

Michele: Well, so once I listened
to the podcast, I haven't

listened to it in a while.

Admittedly, I don't listen, I actually
don't listen to a lot of podcasts, but if

I have a long drive, then I will listen.

And then you started talking about
how amazing all my ideas were.

So then I like kept listening.

Um, so yeah, this is a
great self-esteem boost.

Like, um, so cause you
have the, you have like.

Sidecar, which is a Laravel
of a thing, right, like people

were really psyched about that.

And then,

Colleen: Yes

Michele: uh, no, Aaron did a
Torchlight, the highlighting thing.

Aaron did something with Lambda,
but I don't remember what I

think that was something on

Colleen: that was

Michele: that side.

That's the Lambda thing.


And then, there's other stuff.

So then it made sense to me,
why there's hammer stones.

I guess the name here, I guess
I don't really get that name.

Um, okay.



I mean, it's cool, but it's like, you're
not making, you know, I don't know, like

reproduction Viking clothing or something.

Like, I feel like that's like that,
like, you know, like it's like

hammer stone metery, you know, like.

Colleen: Okay.

So I want to talk to you about this
name because all those other packages

we have, like, none of those are for

I mean, Torchlight is for sale,
but we don't anticipate that

being like a big moneymaker
where we might open source that.

So I feel like I was thinking about
that actually, my friend brought up

that like, Wildbit owns postmark, but
they're they feel independent, right?

Like when you go to postmarks website,
it doesn't say postmark by Wildbit.

Michele: Also because Wildbit sold it.

Colleen: Well before that though.

No, where I know they sold it, but
before that, right before they sold it,

like it was their company, but it felt
like if you went on their site, if you

Googled them, like it felt independent.

And I bring that up because maybe
instead of calling it Refine by

hammer stone, like that's ridiculous.

Maybe we should just call it hammer
stone or maybe we should just

call Refine, but I do think, and
I got to talk to Aaron about this.

I do think there is an opportunity
because now if someone Googles, what if

they heard on the podcast that I call
it Refine and they Google, refine query

builder, like nothing's going to show up.

So I feel like there is some opportunity,
if people seem really confused about

the name thing, and I feel like
we should fix that since this is

the product we want to make money.

Somehow, whether we just call it
hammer stone or we just call it refine.

I don't know.

I'm open to.

Michele: I mean, it's also worth doing a
trademark search and just checking that

there isn't another piece of software out
there called refine because if there is,

and then you eventually, this becomes like
a big thing and you want to trademark it.

Like you could have to change your name,
or you could get a cease and desist

from somebody, so it's worth just going
on the patent and trademark office is

website and just checking that as well.

Colleen: Yeah, I mean, like I
said, we're going to spend the next

couple of weeks, really, really all.

I mean, obviously we still work have our
jobs, but really thinking about this, like

giving this marketing stuff some like real
time, because it seems a little confusing.

Michele: I would focus more
on selling than I would on the

marketing and the name right now.

I feel like people get really hung
up on like names and logos and color

schemes, when they're trying to launch
a business, when they should be focusing

on launching a business, like you
can always change that stuff later.

Colleen: Okay.

So talk to me about what
you think that looks Like,

Michele: So this is interesting because
Aaron on, on hammer stone pod was

also talking about how, like, he has
a lot of experience with marketing,

but not necessarily with sales.

And I guess you've done a lot.

I mean, as a, as a consultant, you've
done a little bit of sales, right?

You have to like sell, like,
do you have to like write

proposals and stuff like that?

Colleen: Yeah.

I do.

I feel like I kind of get it.

I mean, I feel like I know how to close
and yes, I have to write proposals, but

Michele: Hopefully, you don't
have to do that for this.


Colleen: Yeah.

Well, and I don't know.

I mean, how would you even let's
let's like practically think about

this, like, so we have a handful
of people that have purchased it.

What is the next step?

Michele: mean, so if you, if you feel
like your target customer is managers

in an organization that use Laravel.

Then you need to figure out who those
people are and where they are and

how you can get in front of them.

Colleen: Okay.

Now I want to talk to you about
something though, because you

are an ideal customer of the Nova
because you are in Nova every day.

You don't want to write custom SQL.

You want what you want, and
yet you have not yet installed.

Michele: Yeah, because we
got stuff going on, like.

You know, I want to install
it, but like, you know, server

migrations and feature built.

Like, there's all this stuff
that was like already happening.

Like, yes, we have some flexibility in
our roadmap, but it's not like it can just

Colleen: Okay.

Try this

Michele: Immediately.

Do you know what I mean?

Like it takes time.

Colleen: I do.

If you didn't know me, if I
wasn't like your best friend,

you're kind of obligated.

If you didn't know me and
you were like, wow, this meta

base is really pissing me off.

And you stumbled upon our landing page.

Do you think you would have bought it?

Michele: Uh, I don't think I
would have stumbled upon it.

More likely is that, I'm, I'm
trying to do something in meta base.

And then I'm like,
Mathias, how do I do this?

Is this the right thing again?

Like, you know, whatever.

And he's like, oh, let me put
my headphones down and come over

it and I'll help you with it.

And like, he's very patient with
me, but like, I'm interrupting him.

And then, so in all likelihood,
he sees this on hacker news.

Hey, like we should do this.

So you, you know, stop bugging me
with help writing queries that, and

then I would be like yeah, probably.

I don't know if I would buy it at a
thousand dollars, but I mean also I like

in the beginning, I think it's okay,

if it's like your friends who are
supporting you, cause like me being like,

I don't know this thing, like, what is it?

But then, do you have like
testimonials on your website right now?

Colleen: We have

Michele: okay.

like we need it, me writing a testimonial,
that's like, this is so great.

I don't have to go into
metabase and write SQL anymore.


Buy it.

So worth it.


Colleen: But two things.

I th I think you said
that were interesting.

And I agree, like having your friends
support you in the beginning is awesome

because you get some, we're going
to get such good feedback and great

Michele: I love supporting my
friends and being a business expense.

Like it's just like this.

There was like, I think
I bought a, what was it?

Oh, it was Peter's thing, reform.

The other, the other re
thing and QuickBooks, like

categorized it as a donation.

And I was like, where's the lie?

Like what?


Colleen: Where's the lie.

That's amazing.

Michele: you know, so it's like,


Colleen: So this is what I took from what
you just said, which was interesting,

use meta base and that's a pain point.

So maybe one place I can look would be
like meta base forums for people's pain

Michele: Yeah.

People trying SQL

Colleen: People trying to
use SQL who are frustrated.



Michele: trying to
figure out use metabase.

Yeah, like maybe like product people
who not only managers, but also like

the product people who need, or in a
small enough organization that they

don't have a BI team they're asking
developers to, you know, like, can

you give me a list of all of the users
in the last month who have done this

because they need to like send an email
or do whatever, or do some analysis.

So small enough that they don't have a BI
team, they're using Laravel or using Nova,

and yeah, the like the product people and
then find them, you know, whether they're

the thing is, is like you could probably
go on stack overflow and find people

asking questions about like, I'm trying to
write the SQL query to work with metabase,

but like, do you know that they're
working with Laravel and with Nova right?

Like there's like, there's

a lot of

pieces there.


Colleen: Yeah.

Okay, cool.


No, that's, that's really good.

That's, you know, that's a good
kind of, to think through that flow.

And I think what we are going to do.

Uh, Aaron and I are going
to see each other next week.


For our workshop.

Michele: Oh, my God.

It's next week, right?

Colleen: it's

Michele: Is it ready?

Colleen: week.

Oh yeah.

I finished it.

just been, it's been a lot, like,
I'm going to be honest, Michelle.

Like, I'm a pretty happy person, you
know, me really well, but when we

got no sales and I had to build that
workshop from scratch, I was not in dude.

I totally was.

It's like, this is terrible.

Why did I agree to do

Michele: What do they call it?

The, uh, the trough of sorrow.

Have you ever seen that.

Colleen: Oh dude.

I was so in the trough of sorrow,
like to whatever that was two

weeks ago, I was like, this sucks.

Why am I doing

Michele: Yeah.

That's the trough

Colleen: Oh yeah.

I feel like, you know,
it, wasn't a trough.

It's more of a dip, but you know,
that's what I remind myself.

That's part of the game, right?

These emotional

Michele: water bowl of sorrow
for your golden retriever.

Ah, yeah.

Colleen: So yeah.

so it's done now.

I just have to practice it, but it
was a lot, I mean, putting together

the workshop was ton of work.

It was a tremendous amount of work.

And so I just want it to be over

Michele: How long is the workshop.

Colleen: Um, Well, so here's
the interesting thing it's

supposed to be 90 minutes.

I have no idea how long
it's actually going to take.

I think, you know, we have tons,
we can just keep going and going.


We can just like, I can do this for all
day, but I have prepared what I think will

take approximately that amount of time.

And, um, you, know, someone who has
given a lot of workshops told me

it always takes longer than you.

' cause you're like, oh, I'm going to
give you 10 minutes to do this thing.

And then someone's dependencies are out
of whack or someone can't get the, you,

know, they don't have Docker installed
or whatever that always happens.

So it's been a

whole thing.

But anyway, I give it

Michele: Can you, send people like a list?

It's like, Hey, like, make sure
your dependencies are in order.

And like, you know, make sure you have

Colleen: People don't do.

So I got a cloud IDE git pod.

I got it set up and git pod, so for
those that do not have the correct,

like can't get the repo running.

Like they can just, it's pretty cool.

It's like one click and it, um, it's the
whole IDE and it runs the server for you.

And it has all the dependencies
in it, which I got set up

yesterday, which was a huge pain.

Yeah, so it'll be good.

I think the workshop's going to be great.

I do, but I also just want it to be over

Michele: Yeah.

And then I guess you feel like after rails
conf you can really focus on selling this.

Colleen: That's what I, yes,
that's exactly how I feel.

So I.

You know, Aaron and I have a
lot of things to talk about.

We have a lot of feedback.

I'm going to see him,
which will be really good.

And our plan for the next like is just
to push on the marketing and sales, like

just really get out there, try stuff.

Um, while we have a contractor
finishing up the front end for

Laravel and Vue, we have a different
contractor working on Vue and it's

going to be all themed and amazing.

And so that's almost done.

So that's going to be
done in a couple of weeks.

The rail stuff is almost done.

So I still think in the next like two
to three months a lot is, oh, it's

may I just realized it's may, may
June, July, August 12th, whatever.

Um, In the next two to three months,
things are really going to pick up.

Michele: So I heard you talking
about a lot of building stuff.

There was less, marketing the stuff
in there, even though you just talked

about marketing it, like, have you guys
thought about, you know, I mean, I know

Aaron's done this a bunch in the past,
like posting more stuff on Twitter

about just what you're working on.

So people are aware of it
and can see it in action.

Even as you're working, like, like,
I feel like you're holding this

really close to your chest and.

Kind of, I mean, you didn't even tell
anybody about it for like, uh, like how

long was it between the time people could
actually buy the Nova thing and then you

actually sent the email like two months.

Colleen: Yeah, I know.

I know we're not, we're
not doing that anymore.

We're we're going to change that cadence.

Aaron didn't want to do a big tweet to
thread about Nova cause he wants to save,

like, save that social capital for Laravel
since we're so close, But um, yeah,

Michele: just stuff like you're working on
like, Hey, like I'm building this Le like

rails thing and like, it's not complete,
but like, here's what I did today.

Like, people



Like just post, like just
like build in public stuff,

except you're like 95% built.


Colleen: Yeah.

I usually do that.

I think we've been distracted.

He has been, he had his lara cast.

He had to finish and I
had to do the workshops.

So we've both been kind of
heads down in this like kind

of busy work ish kind of thing.

But you will see more of that.

That's obviously a great idea
and something we need to, we

Michele: And so you're at rails conf next
week and the rails thing is, is that

going to be refined for rails or, or,

Colleen: Yeah,

Michele: Is that the, so that's not
going to be available for sale at rails.

Colleen: It's super close,
but it's not quite ready yet.

So we still have like a few little bugs.

We gotta iron out.


No cause that's next week, but
like it's, I mean, so close almost

Michele: so then your goal for the
conference next week is to talk to

people and drum up interest in this and.

Like have you thought about doing
a pre-order of it so that people

at rails conf can pre-order it.

Colleen: That's an interesting idea.

Michele: then, so you're not
waiting until the launch,

Colleen: That's an interesting

Michele: like just having a
simple landing page where they can

pre-order it for, I don't know how
much you're going to sell it for,

Colleen: that we're going to sell for the


thousand dollars.


Michele: So put up a landing
page that says they can buy it,

you know, for, I don't know.

7 99 or something if they pre-order it

Colleen: That's a great idea.


Michele: and like join and like join a

Colleen: in the next,

Michele: Right.

Colleen: uh, yeah, let me
talk to Aaron about that.

So I mean, we have some

Michele: You got to have
something to do on the plane.


Colleen: Right.


It's like, you know, I was talking,
oh, because Stripe announced their

mark docs or whatever yesterday
that everyone's so excited about.

And the reason they're so excited
about it is cause we have like,

here's the problem we have.

And I'm just going to rant a little bit.

So Aaron did our, and I had the same
problem with simple file upload, landing

pages are so much harder than they need.

So what you just said made total sense.

I should just throw up a landing
page, but ours is in Laravel, which

I don't even have running locally.

So I can't just throw up a landing page.

So then I'd have to spin up like another
domain and, or, you know, a sub domain

and link to it from our main domain.

I guess it's not hard.

It's just like, I don't know.

Michele: You're selling
a Laravel of a product.

Maybe you should have some passing
familiarity with it, at least as it

pertains to your marketing website.

Like, what if there's a day when like
you need a sales call and somebody is

late and like Aaron isn't available.

Colleen: Yeah, I think too.

I mean, I don't know.

I guess this just goes back to like,
where do you do your landing pages?

Like how do you do your landing pages?

Um, you know what I should do, Michelle.

Like let's simplify this you're right.

That feels a little overwhelming.

Cause I still have to practice this
workshop and get on an airplane.

But why don't I, what is that?

That one page thing everyone
loves, it's not carbon, it's yeah.

Why don't I just Do a card

Michele: Do a

card plus one of those
Stripe checkout links.

Colleen: yeah.


Michele: And then also you
have a MailChimp and you have a

MailChimp thing set up, right.

So you can have a MailChimp

Colleen: We have MailChimp set up.

We can

segment, like, I think we have a reform.

I got to talk to Aaron about this.

We have a reform to that he's been

Michele: Oh, does that feed

Colleen: talk to him.

Michele: thing or?

Colleen: Yeah.

Right now we have a reform that feeds
into the MailChimp, but that would

be easier to segment using that as
opposed to like what I do on simple

file upload where I actually write
the code to segment in the app.

Um, Y Yeah,

I, you know what, that's what I should do.

I feel like that's the
fastest is spin up a card.

Michele: it doesn't have to be

Colleen: Stripe checkout link.

doesn't have to be perfect.


Michele: Give people a discount
for pre-ordering like say

it's going to be available.

I don't know, say like
June 1st or whatever,

Colleen: months.

Michele: Or July 1st and say, if you
pre-order it right now, like 7 99.

Colleen: Yes.

I love this idea.


I'm in

Michele: Cool.

I think we're good.

Um, okay.

Would you like to read our list
of, uh, sponsors this week?


Colleen: Yes.


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Michele: Isn't that such
a nice list to read.

Like it's so heartwarming
to like, read that.


You've got a lot of work to do.

Colleen: Oh, can I just take a nap?

Michele: No, Colleen actually, I
guess golden retrievers do nap.

So yes.

Colleen: I was joking with my husband.

I literally have to go to a conference
to get some sleep that was like the

first two days are going to be rails conf
and then the last day I'm just going to

spend the whole day in my hotel room.

Michele: So, I guess I
won't talk to you next week.

It'll be two weeks then.

Colleen: Yeah,

Michele: Yeah, because
you're at rails conf.


I will

Colleen: All right.


Michele: in two weeks.

Creators and Guests

Colleen Schnettler
Colleen Schnettler
Co-Founder of Refine, Founder of Simple File Upload
Michele Hansen
Michele Hansen
Co-Founder of Geocodio & Author of Deploy Empathy
2022, Software Social