Colleen Schnettler 0:00
So I have some news.

Michele Hansen 0:01
You have some news. Very,

Colleen Schnettler 0:03
very exciting news. What

Michele Hansen 0:05
is the news? Hammerstone

Colleen Schnettler 0:06
has been accepted into tiny seeds fall batch? Yes.

Michele Hansen 0:12
Oh my gosh, how long have you been waiting to say

Colleen Schnettler 0:14
that? Oh, man. I mean, my whole life or you mean since I found out and I wanted to tell you? Yeah, we we've only known for about a week, they just announced it. So it has been a whirlwind of excitement.

Michele Hansen 0:29
But I imagine you are now like, Go mode, right? Oh, like,

Colleen Schnettler 0:35
yeah, there's a fair amount of kind of, like, legally stuff. And like, how does this even work stuff? We're figuring out so like, the first week, it was just figuring that out. But yeah, I mean, this is an, this is gonna change everything. And this is this is gonna change

Michele Hansen 0:52
everything. I feel like, this has kind of been like, your dream, like to be able to work full time on a software business, like you fully get to like, like, it's like no more consulting now. Right? Like,

Colleen Schnettler 1:06
that's the goal. Yeah. Yeah. That's it full time gonna be building a business. It's what I get to do now.

Michele Hansen 1:14
So where's your head at now on like, Oh,

Colleen Schnettler 1:19
I'm so excited. Like I have, I just cannot wait. I mean, I'm already started. But I'm so excited. That's where my head's at.

Michele Hansen 1:26
No, but I'm in terms of like, structuring your thing. Like, like, what are you starting with first? Like, how are you like, now that you have this money? Like,

Colleen Schnettler 1:35
what are you gonna do? Yeah,

Michele Hansen 1:38
that's fair, you know, like,

Colleen Schnettler 1:39
and that's fair, because a lot of people say, we don't take this investment for the money, we take it for all of the other benefits. I think the thing with Hammerstone now is, this really frees me up from consulting, like, this is it. So the number one thing to do here? For me, the very first step is figure out how I can cut back on the consulting. And I know I have said that on this podcast before. But I was hesitant to do it, because it's my source of income and livelihood. So now I have that as an investment. So there is nothing tying me to the consulting anymore other than my obligations. And so I have to figure out so step one, we took the money, we're super excited, cannot wait to get started. Step one. No more consulting.

Michele Hansen 2:30
So I feel like now you have the funding. You guys have sold it a little bit. What's the go to market?

Colleen Schnettler 2:40
Yes. Okay. So this is what I'm super excited to talk about. Okay, so step one for me is I have to figure out how to do less consulting. And our product is I mean, I consult in conjunction with our products. So that's not a cut and dry, easy solution that's a little bit messy. And that's my number one priority. And hope to solve that problem pretty quickly. With hoping to find some help in that arena. Something we have Aaron and I've been talking about for a while, is launching Laravel Nova. So that's one thing. And I mean, this is a joke, but also true, literally, the first thing I'm going to do is raise the price. Like people laugh about that, but it's true. We're gonna we spend a lot of time this week, deep diving on pricing structures and how we want to price this product. And how do you price a product that is a library but also requires a fair amount of support. I don't know if support is even the right word. Onboarding is a term we're using. So you can't really I mean, a couple people have, but generally speaking, you're going to find the most success with the product, if I onboard you personally. So we're talking about changing the whole pricing structure. Right now. It's an 1000. It's a $1,000 product, so double or triple that right out of the gate, and then only sell it with an onboarding package.

Michele Hansen 4:02
It's basically like customer success is really the key, I guess you really haven't. Well, you've been basically doing that for free with your beta customers. That's correct. And you need to charge for that like as like an onboarding package, basically,

Colleen Schnettler 4:17
I think. Yes, absolutely. I think the problem I'm running into is I am so excited. And I want this product to be amazing, of course, and I want my customers to be so happy. But I have made myself a little bit too available. And so I can't get any work done when I get you know, Slack messages every two hours about something because it's like having a client. Oh, yeah, but I'm not getting paid. Yeah. So I am, so hopefully it's a win win, right? Like I'm super grateful to my early customers, for taking a chance on us and for helping me make this product better. But I'm not going to take on any more customers at this price point. It's just not worth it for me to take on more Are customers at this price point, I have enough information right now, to know, I think the next steps for the product based on the five people have on boarded. And I'm finding, I get frustrated because I'm doing all of this unpaid work, which is fine. But I don't want to continue doing the unpaid work on the same problems. Like I've talked to enough people to know what some of the early problems are, we're gonna fix those early problems. So if you really want refine, like it's now going to be, I don't know, $8,000 6000. I don't know, we don't know the exact number but like

Michele Hansen 5:32
some amount of like a, like a license fee, and then an onboarding package, and then also a support.

Colleen Schnettler 5:38
I'm not sure. I mean, this is all like we literally, were just brainstorming this yesterday, our kind of gut move right now is going to be something like $2,500 for the product 5k for the onboarding, three to 5k for a support contract as well.

Michele Hansen 5:54
So like, it sounds like that onboarding package like like, you're like, is it right today, you're not going to sell it, the license without the onboarding, at least for like the foreseeable future.

Colleen Schnettler 6:05
That's what I think. So my thought is, I'm going to make it clear to like, you have to buy them together, you don't have to buy support, maybe, but you have to buy the package and the onboarding together. And it's not available till January, because I have my hands full, getting what we need to get done, done. So the increase in pricing is really to slow the demand. And I want to slow the demand for a couple reasons. One, I want the right type of customer, I do not begrudge anyone who tells me $1,000 is too expensive. Everyone has a different business. Everyone has a different business model. However, this is a product that is going to be at a much higher price point our customers are going to be businesses who are making, I don't know, at least half a million dollars a year I'm thinking I mean, I'm just calling more than that. Yeah. Like, like we're targeting businesses who are making over a million arr. And so I think as indie hackers, we kind of get in this trap where we all start selling things to each other, which is great. But that's not what I'm learning. And I again, if you bought refine, and you're an indie hacker, I love you. Thank you. I cannot thank you enough. But that's not going to be our market. I think even just talking to the you know, we haven't even gotten on like a mentorship call with tiny seed, we had 130 minute call, but even that, like 30 minute call, I'm like, okay, they're right. They're like, Yeah, this is this is this product is not really positioned the way you want it to be positioned. And so,

Michele Hansen 7:30
so you said raising prices to slow demand, you're sounding a little bit like a Federal Reserve Chairman over there. Like, do you have like a lot of inbound interest that you haven't been able to serve? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Because like, I feel like sometimes we talk and you're like, it's felt it's a bit like you've had weeks where it's like, you know, kind of feels kind of slow, or like, you know, I sold one license this week, like, so I guess, but I'm kind of surprised by that.

Colleen Schnettler 7:58
So I think the conflict is twofold. One, you're gonna hate me, I've actually, like, I'm not, I don't even want to say this on the podcast. But I've actually told people not to buy in, and like, just don't buy have like I have, because it's so because the onboarding is so painful right now. And it's painful, not because of anyone else's fault. Because the product is is like beta. But because the onboarding is painful, if you buy refine it $1,000, like, I cannot support you in the way you need to be supported. And that makes me feel crappy. I don't want you to buy it and be like, Oh, this thing kind of sucks. Or I can't figure out how to use this. And Colleen is not available to tell me or the documentation is lacking. Like we have a lot of holes, and we know that and we're working on fixing them. So that's why because I don't really want these people to buy it and $1,000 Like, I just don't have the bandwidth to support them properly.

Michele Hansen 8:54
So at first, I mean, I feel like that feeling of like, this isn't good enough for people to buy it and so you tell them not to like actually seemed like there's a really common feeling like I'm thinking back to the conversation I had with Vic in June about like, letting people buy his thing and he like, wouldn't let them let people paying for it. So I feel like that's a common feeling. But I guess my next thought on this is like as we've talked about this and talked about various like calls you've had and stuff, the people who need refine, like genuinely need it. They've got like a burning like, like this is like a mission critical problem for them. Like to the point where like, you have this like client that you've been like working on like integrating it with, right because they need it so much versus they need it more than $1,000 and it's almost like too cheap to them like that it could solve this major problem that they have at that price point. And it sounds like the challenges that they're having are so unique to them that there does need to be that baked in customer success. element to get it working in the way that they need it to like this is enough of a problem that they want to pay more to have it fixed. Does that make sense? Like,

Colleen Schnettler 10:11
yeah, I think I actually think the $1,000 price point makes people think it's not valuable.

Michele Hansen 10:16
Like, it doesn't seem like it can do what you're saying. Like, it doesn't seem believable. Yeah. Like, you're

Colleen Schnettler 10:20
gonna replace a developer for three months. Like, you wouldn't charge $1,000 That must not be the product I need. Right? And so raising the price actually makes them realize that like, No, this this is incredibly valuable product.

Michele Hansen 10:34
So okay, so the like the short term? Well, you said January, because is there is there like a timeline on like, when your first cohort of five ends is that December,

Colleen Schnettler 10:45
I mean, it I say, December, but that's arbitrary. Right? Now, we are very much working with these customers and cycling through and they'll bring something up, and we're trying to stay on top of that. And then our biggest customer, you know, the one funding the development has lots and lots and lots of really kind of niche requests that we're trying to keep up with. So the product is going to be amazing. But I'm, like perfectly honest with you. Like the product is not amazing yet. But it

Michele Hansen 11:12
doesn't have to be amazing in order for it to be a significant improvement over what people have right now. That's true. Like it doesn't like I think the I don't want to say like, critique, but like, I think something where like you guys so far have struggled a little bit is you kind of overbuilt and you felt like you need it for like, every framework, and you need a front end and like all of this stuff. And it's been, I mean, it's been an active project for like two years now. Right? So like, I think that's okay, if you're selling it when it's not amazing, because it doesn't have to be amazing in order to alleviate a ton of pain for your customers.

Colleen Schnettler 11:54
And I agree, and I'll sell it to these guys who asked me for $8,000 I just won't sell it to them for $1,000. It's kind of my because

Michele Hansen 12:01
they need more help than 1000 though, right? Like, and it just doesn't seem. Now it's not economically viable for you at 1000. And also doesn't seem like they're gonna get the amount of help that like they need for $1,000, which is weird. So it's actually it's better for everybody customers included, if you charge them more,

Colleen Schnettler 12:19
yes, that's what I'm fine, they get more out of it. 100%. Like, that's what I'm finding that is a win win for everyone. And so when I say I'm telling people not to buy it, what I really mean is, I'm telling people not to buy it at $1,000, because I can't, it's like I can't adequately support them at that price point. And if they're not adequately supported at this part of where the product is, like, they're not going to have success. And so I would hate for people to buy it, and then be like, No, this isn't really what we need, but it's just $1,000 Whatever, I'll just like, not worry about it. Like that's not the result I want. I want people to buy it and love it. I feel like

Michele Hansen 12:55
there's a kind of a distinction here that we've sort of mentioned, but not explicitly, which is like the difference between customer success and customer support. Oh, yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, because like, I feel like what you're talking about is like, like customer success is getting them on boarded like first 30 days, helping them implement and be successful with it, which feels similar, but is very different than like, hey, like, you know, how do I work with the API key like or like, it's not, you know, working for the street, like, like, or how do I update my billing information? Like, those are very different kinds of questions then, like, basically proving to the customer that this is a viable solution for them and like, getting them to that point where they start seeing the value is like different than support? Is that how you think about it? Or like,

Colleen Schnettler 13:49
is it different? I'm understanding like this in my context. So

Michele Hansen 13:54
yeah, I mean, I guess for you, it's, I guess, I guess for you like, customer success is that key thing is like, I almost wonder like, Is it viable? Like you said, you're getting you're getting pinged on Slack all the time, you can't get work done, like, how are you going to structure this customer sucks, like this onboarding package, basically, yes. Got it so that it ends up getting them to that point of realizing the value you know, within you know, 30 days 60 days, whatever that is, like it's time boxed because like this is enough for like you to hire yourself full time but like it's not enough to go out and hire a customer success person like so I'm just wondering how you're going to make that work. So

Colleen Schnettler 14:38
here's I think this is gonna go down and it's early days, but Okay, so we changed the pricing structure completely. As I said, what what is happening now is every time like I have this one customer and he is so disciplined, like he's so dedicated, even and he he like put like a week of work into refined to customize it just the way he wanted. And it was still worth it to him because as to your point because of the value of the product. So I think every time I onboard a new customer and they hit a pain point, we're learning we're learning. We don't have any documentation right now. I mean, we have a little bit, we have very little documentation right now. So every time something happens, I'm like, oh, that's this edge case. But it's not really an edge case. Because other people are going to run into this at this particular case. Add that to the docs, add that to the docs, there's so much work that needs to be done that I think we're going to converge to customer success being less and less of a, like process.

Michele Hansen 15:39
So this isn't like a forever thing that it's sold, licensed plus onboarding like this is, I mean, this is like for now and like maybe in the future, there's like, some lesser amount,

Colleen Schnettler 15:50
I don't know, I think I think it might be a forever thing. It's just gonna get easier for me.

Michele Hansen 15:55
Okay. And I guess like, historically, I'm kind of thinking back to when you were writing the simple file upload Doc's like, I feel like that, like you kind of dragged your feet on that a little bit like writing documentation is not your favorite thing.

Colleen Schnettler 16:08
Yeah, it's kind of interesting, because I don't dislike writing documentation. But I think it's very common as a developer. And you know, it's funny, because that's the advice I give to a friend of mine who has a business, he's trying to get off the ground, I'm like, No one can figure out how to use your thing. Like you've got to write documentation. However, when it comes to your own stuff, it's a little bit harder. I think, because there are so many pain points in the product, like, for example, and give you a really concrete example, one of the requests we get is, How can I customize the front end, no one is going to pay $10,000 for a product that they cannot customize the front end to match their application. Our styles are hard coded into our view partials. So in order to allow just even in a baby step, allow someone to customize the front end, I need to separate our styles from the style sheet. And that involves someone going into ar 10 partials with who knows how many lines of code, pulling out all of the tailwind styles, and putting them into their own style sheets so that an end user could just override the style sheet instead of having to override all the views. So this is like an extremely tangible, time consuming problem. Should I do that? Or should I write documentation? I mean, he kind of needs you both? Well, yeah, that's now I've hired people. Yeah. But But what I'm finding is I keep running into these things. It's almost like there's just a lot of things like that. And of course, you can use a product like that. But you're not going to show your users the product until it matches your UI. And so absolutely, 100% need to do both. It just seems like it's hard to prioritize that. And it's, there's one of me, and again, I just I have someone working on this now. And hopefully he'll have it done, you know, in a couple of weeks. But but there's a lot of stuff like that. And now I'm managing three people. And I'm the I'm the product architect, so there's just a lot of stuff.

Michele Hansen 18:09
So, I mean, it seems like you need a little bit more structure, and process and like, and you mentioned that it's stressful when like getting pinged on Slack. And yet, you're managing three people now. And can I give you some advice? Like what I would Yeah, of course, like, so I feel like you getting pinged with success support issues on Slack, that's not working stuff is going to fall through the cracks of that, like, that also gets stressful because you never know. Like, there's like this immediate reply expectation of slack, right? So I think, even with this cohort, like that stuff needs to be in a ticketing system of some sort, like whether like doesn't need to be intercom at this point. But like, even if it's just like they, they open a GitHub issue instead just for your own triaging that it needs to be a ticket somewhere so that like you, and Aaron can look at, like everything going on. And I think this is also kind of important where you're not both like working full time or in the same place, right? So you can like see the work that's going on? Because you could spend your whole day replying to stuff on Slack. And then it like, what, like, what do you have to show for that? Right. But I think, you know, something like GitHub that basically just sort of you have like receipts, right? But also, I think it's something we have done with JIRA Podio is a ticket doesn't get closed, until we've prevented it happening in the future. So this might be documentation. This might be like, actually fixing the bug, whatever that is, like it doesn't get closed until did we put up a guide for it? Did we like do the documentation for it? Like, have we addressed this on the website somewhere so that we're preventing that cost? Shouldn't from recurring another time, which I think for us as a small team is really, really important because we can't just like throw bodies at a problem and have an army of customer support people like replying to the same questions all the time. Like, also, I mean, just imagine working as a customer support person on a team like that, like is credibly, like demotivating. Right? So it's not done until the documentation that prevents it from coming up again, or the feature or like, whatever that is, like until that's done. But I think if you're managing three people, you've got all this stuff going on. Like, like, like, are you using any sort of like project management?

Colleen Schnettler 20:43
So it's so funny. It's so funny, you said that, because literally last week, I was like, this is not working. So now when people Slack message me, I point them to a GitHub project. And I said, Okay, please open an issue and get

Michele Hansen 20:55
okay. Okay, so you don't Yeah, I should have asked you. I don't know, doing anything. But even giving, you

Colleen Schnettler 21:02
know, terrible, I still talk about this. I think that's phenomenal advice because of this, because I already did it. So yes, go to great minds, bit of great minds. So it's actually still kind of annoying. And I'm still kind of sorting it out. Because here's what I've done. So I have the client, which has a GitHub project to manage stuff, that is a problem for them. Okay, because I get painted by like all I mean, there's 50 engineers with the client, and a lot of them are using filters. So that was a huge problem. So I've now started to ask them to open GitHub issues. I have my customers, and I asked them to open GitHub issues in the refined rails repository, then, but the problem is, then I don't know if it's a problem or not yet. I'm just rolling this out. I just started last week. And I have a notion document for my contractors. And the reason these things are separate is because the notion document is kind of like the the source of truth. Because I can't let the client if we talk, I'm going to say client to mean the client funding and customers to mean people who bought refined, okay, so I can't let so we have the client 50 engineers, I'm getting pinged all the time, I point them to a GitHub project in their repo. But a lot of those issues I need to expose to my contractors, but I can't expose those issues to my customers, right, because those are, you know, proprietary stuff. So then I have a notion document. I mean, it's okay, I think, but it does feel like I'm like, I gotta check the notion document. I have to make sure the GitHub issues are properly linked to the notion document so everyone knows what they need to do. So I haven't nailed it is what I'm saying. Like it's event or something?

Michele Hansen 22:37
Yeah, you're not because like, what I was picturing is like, you just getting pinged on Slack all the time we get maybe the client has some sort of system, they're using the like, from the way you were describing everything is sounded very disjointed. But it sounds like you're Yeah, I do actively manage. Yeah, and

Colleen Schnettler 22:51
again, I just rolled that out, I was just yoloing it and that was not working. So I thought it would be fine. It was not fun. So I did just rolled it out last week. So hopefully, that will help kind of provide some structure. And like I have really now that I have, I feel like this money too, is going to enable me to really be able to focus more on the important things. And that's building the business. And that's product architecture. But I have to get out of this constant, like, people are always asking me for things. So I have to get out of the constant slacking and the constant. Can you do a quick meeting? Can you do a quick meeting? Like, I used to be really, really good at that, like one of my strengths is I am exceptional at Focus. Like I can just focus, I can just turn it on. Not what I'm getting slapped every hour, you know, I mean, so that is a problem trying to solve.

Michele Hansen 23:42
So alright, so the plan, if I can summarize. Yes. So through the end of December, you're working with your cohort clients. Correct? The price goes up now. Yes, right. Yes. You mentioned you don't want to sell it to people like right now. But like I'm, I'm wondering what your how long your sales cycle has been? Because it sounds like because like if somebody buys it now. Like how long? Like how long has it been taking from like when time somebody reaches out when they actually like pay you?

Colleen Schnettler 24:13
It's so variable out of the five? One, Twitter DM me, and I didn't get back within like two hours. So we just bought it, the other. The other guy just bought it and then told me and then actually, you know what, all the rails customers just bought it. The rails.

Michele Hansen 24:32
Cycle is sure. Okay, you're right. The sales

Colleen Schnettler 24:35
are pretty short, actually.

Michele Hansen 24:37
Well, I feel like if I think it's important that you get to the point where you are selling it at an economically viable price point. Yeah, I know you've got a lot going on. I don't feel like you should push that off. Like so you can find some way to kind of get the house in order in terms of your like time and people A customer management like, like that slack problem. And even if that's just like setting expectations about like, Hey guys, sorry, like, we're heads down on the product now, which is like good news for them. Yeah, and just be like, I'm gonna hold office hours, like every day from like four to file or like whatever that is. So that like, and then when it's not those office hours, I'm not available, like Slack is like close like you're logged out, like you are not getting notifications on your phone. And like, it's just it's not a problem. Or you can simply tell them like, you can drop messages in here, but I'm only going to reply during this one hour block. And then I can be really focused on you and your problems. And the rest of the time. I can be like taxing my time and making this product better so that you don't have as many of those questions in the future. I love but then you are you need to have some time to like, you need to stop. Not letting people buy it.

Colleen Schnettler 26:05
No, wait. Oh, like, Oh, I agree. So he'll like you as you because you said

Michele Hansen 26:08
you're gonna wait till January. I'm like, I wish I put

Colleen Schnettler 26:13
that tell me. Yeah. So you think I should raise the price and just let you buy it? And I'll sort it out.

Michele Hansen 26:18
Yeah. And I think if you sort out this, like, it sounds like this, the you know, the client and the notion thing is like a separate thing that you've at least got kind of a process there. At least at least you've got people putting in like customers putting stuff in GitHub, but like, you gotta get rid of this slack problem. And that is a relatively I think people would understand

Colleen Schnettler 26:39
Oh, why did you lie? So like, yeah, people. My first group of customers is amazing. Like, they're Yeah,

Michele Hansen 26:43
I don't think they're not not wanting to do this. But like, if one person is like, Oh, I just sent her like one thing, you know, once a day, but then a five people do that. Yeah, it's like that, like or like you like, if they want to, like grab a quick meeting. Like you have a Calendly for them. Yeah, that like has like, one hour a day that's available. And maybe it's like different, you know, because I don't know what time zones they are or whatever. Yeah, but like, you know, so you've you have timebox that you've set boundaries on your time so that you can be heads down and feeling like you're making progress.

Colleen Schnettler 27:17
It's funny you bring this up. I was reading Sahil blooms newsletter. Do you get his newsletter?

Michele Hansen 27:21
No. Like, the only newsletter I read is like money stuff.

Colleen Schnettler 27:25
That tracks and Ben

Michele Hansen 27:27
Kelly I love his newsletter. Alaska Ben. bootstraps like frigging like, spaceship comes

Colleen Schnettler 27:35
I know so impressive. But he was talking about this in his last newsletter about like, a tension and how all these things it was based on Cal Newports book, deep work, which I haven't read. But I think the takeaway is batch your notifications, because you don't need to check your emails every 30 minutes, right? It's not exactly yeah. And I need to do that. I'm really bad about that with slack because the client I want to be available to our client and our customers. But I think setting expectations is the key. I love it. I'm gonna try it.

Michele Hansen 28:06
Cool. So charge more. Be available less love it. All right. Sounds like your plan. High five. All right. Well, I'll talk to you next week.

Colleen Schnettler 28:16
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