What's Hammerstone? A Broadcast of the Hammerstone.dev Podcast with Colleen and Aaron

Colleen and Aaron chat about all things Hammerstone.

Hey everyone.

This week, Michelle is on vacation.

So we're doing something
a little bit different.

We're republishing an episode
of the hammer stone.dev podcast,

which is the podcast about the
business hammer stone that I talk

about quite a lot on this podcast.

It's a podcast with me
and my co-founder Erin.

It's a little more casual.

We're usually just, um,
hanging out and chatting.

Hope you enjoy it.

Hello, Colleen.

Hello, Erin.

We have very much to discuss cuz I
think it's been like three weeks.

Oh it, yeah, I think so.

Because you were on vacation for a week,
then I was on vacation the very next week.

So maybe I think it has
been three weeks, total.

Yeah, quite a while.

So a lot has happened.

Uh, we've got a whole
list here at the top.

I wanna start with some tub stuff.

Um, I know that you were on vacation,
but we launched our first big

marketing experiment that I was.

Kind of in charge of which was
the open source, uh, send an open

source developer on vacation.

I saw that.

Yeah, it went great.

Oh, that's awesome.

It was amazing.

Yeah, I was.

So I was so just relieved
that it went so well.

Um, cuz I spent a ton of time working
on like the social share images.


So that on Twitter, everyone
would get their own card

based on who they voted for.

Can you explain that to me
because I was on vacation and I

didn't really follow all of that.

What happened?




So the, the whole, the whole deal
is like you come to our site and you

either nominate or vote for an open
source developer to go on vacation.


So you'd come to the site and say
like, I'm gonna vote for, um, Taylor

Atwell, Adam wain, and somebody else.

And then when you click like, Tweet.

So then, you know, we do this
confirmation that says, great,

your votes have been counted.

Do you wanna share it, click
this button to tweet it.

When you click that button, the
social share image on Twitter includes

the people that you voted for.

Ah, yeah.

So like on the card itself,
it'll say I just voted for Taylor

and Adam to go on vacation.

Like you should go vote for somebody.

And so if you scroll through, like, if.

Open Twitter and search tool.app,
and then just go to the live tab.

So you see 'em all and
you just scroll through.

You'll see, just hundreds and hundreds
of tweets with every card is like, uh,

distinct based on who they voted for.


Yeah, that is cool.

Pretty, pretty cool.

How'd you do that?

So it's like a, it's like a native
Twitter campaign almost right?

Um, yeah, I did it with Netlify actually.

So the images are generated on a
Netlify like serverless function.

Mm-hmm and then through some magic,
like edge functions, we inject a

little bit of code into the HTML.

um, that changes the OG image based
on like a, like a unique identifier.

So very cool.

All the links.


All the links point to the same page.

Um, but every image is, is
different based on who you voted.

So pretty great.

I was pretty thrilled.

I was pretty thrilled with how it went.

It kind of took over Twitter for like
two or three days and yeah, it was great.

Ben was thrilled.

Everyone on the team was thrilled.

We still have a lot.

Still have a lot of
like, work to do there.

Cause we still have to, you know,
actually send the people on vacation

mm-hmm um, which is gonna be a
lot of logistics work, but the, the

super fun part went really well.

So I'm pumped about that.

Nicely done.

Very cool.



Feels good.

Feels good to have my first like
big public thing go really well.


Especially after like, I don't know, um,
two months of like working behind the

scenes on stuff and to finally be like,
no, no, no, really look, this works.

Um, that felt really good.

So that was great.

Uh, in other triple news,
This is also good news.

It's gonna sound like it's not,
but it's also very good news.

I'm now halftime at two.


So, yeah, so, um, I've been
feeling for a while, like,

you know, work working at two.

Um, I was responsible for
like all of the marketing and.

You know, the original job
application or job posting was

like, come do like developer stuff
that also happens to be marketing.

And I was like, yeah, that sounds great.

And then it kind of just like
happened that everything marketing

related got shifted over to me.

And so I was doing all of this like
standard marketing work that I'm just not.

Good at.

Um, and I like more importantly, I don't
want to take my career towards standard

marketing and there, there are people who
are really, really good at that stuff.

Um, and so I, you know, I've
been talking to Ben all along

and he's just incredibly like.

Um, gracious and helpful in this
whole process, he was always

asking like, how are you feeling?

Like, what are you working on?

Do you enjoy it?

And it finally got to the point
where it's like, you know, I'm doing

a ton of pure marketing work that
I don't feel like I'm that good at.

And I don't want to spend my career doing.

And I think people would be better served.

If you had like a pure marketer,
like a head of marketing that

was doing all of this stuff.

Um, and so we, you know, we talked about
it over the course of many weeks and

decided like, yeah, I think I, I think I,
Erin should be doing more of the develop,

the pure developer stuff, and someone else
should be doing the pure marketing stuff.

And so we decided great.

Let's like, let's keep the band together,
but I don't think that's a full time job.


So I'm gonna just like, just do
the developer marketing stuff

for them and just like halftime.

So kind of worked out great for everybody.

Cause I think tubal really does need, um,
somebody that's more marketing than I am.

Um, but I really like working
with them and I love this

kind of stuff that I'm doing.

So I think it's gonna
work out great, Erin.

This is the dream.



It's time.

Job's great.

Yeah, it really is.

I mean, this is perfect.

Yeah, it is perfect.

And you know, Ben and I talked about
hammer stone and I I've told him from

the very beginning it's, you know, at
some point I would like to be on my own.

And so he's known that all along and.

Like, I just think there's a really
great opportunity here for me

to do a bunch of stuff publicly,
um, and build cool stuff, Fortu.

And then in the other half of that
time build cool stuff, uh, for hammer

stone and like, yeah, it's not.

In a weird way.

If I, I wanna talk about LA after,
but like, if I speak at LA that's

like good for two, two, you know,
if I, you know, I'm going to this

conference in Amsterdam for a PHP
thing, and if I go there and speak.

About PHP.

Like that's good for 2.2.

And so I feel like this is the best
of, best of both, both worlds things.

So I'm, I'm super pumped.


This seems like the perfect setup.

Totally agree.

Best of both worlds, you have a part-time
job to provide you a stable income.

and then you have the rest of your time to
really dive in and do a lot of the hammer

stone stuff you've been wanting to do.


And I think one of the things that
I've like as I was doing a lot of this

tube work and like talking through
everything along the way with Ben,

um, one of the things that I realized
was like, I want to be doing more of.

Like the hardcore technical stuff.

Um, and that's, that's like one of the
things that I found interesting was, you

know, Ben was offering me the ability
to grow into the head of marketing.

Like he was like, you can do this.

And if, if you want, if you want to
do it, I will help you get there.

And you will end up with a team
of marketers underneath you,

and you will be the boss, which.

Incredibly flattering.

Um, very kind, but I realized that's
not like that's not where I want end up.

Like, I don't want to end
up as the head of marketing.

I want to get more and more.

Um, so yeah, I, I think that's
been a good realization for me.

Um, so yeah, that's, that's
the big breaking news.

Oh, that's amazing news.

I'm so happy for you.

Yeah, thanks.

It's gonna be great.

Yeah, I think so.

So, um, I guess this is
the big announcement.

I mean, I haven't said
anything on Twitter.

Um, surprise but yeah, so I
think, you know, obviously.

Um, I'll need to make up the money,
you know, cuz now I'm half time at two.

Um right.

Hopefully that will all come
from hammer stone eventually.

But in the meantime, I'm also taking
on a few, like I really wanna focus

on Lael performance, um, in including
database and application side, both.

And so I'm taking on a few
Lael performance consulting

engagements, so awesome.

Anybody out there needs help with their.

Performance in their Laville app.

Let me nice.

So enough about me.

What's going on over there.

How was your vacation?

Oh, it was so good.

So I'm a lifelong east coaster.

So I have never been to lake Tahoe, but if
you live in California, like everyone out

here has been there before it is stunning.

I mean, it was just, yeah, it was amazing.

It's like a lake perfectly clear.

Like 50 feet down with like snow
capped mountains in the background.

It was really nice.

We had great sounds pretty great.



Now I know why people like go to the
mountains to like, feel creative, right?

Like you just get out of your environment
and you're like, I really wanted to work.

Like I'm not gonna lie.

I was like, wow, I'm feeling so inspired
and creative out here in the mountains.


So did you come back full of ideas?

I did come back full of
ideas, so it was great.

It was, it was really relaxing.

I'm glad we did it.

Um, we had a wonderful time.

Oh, I have a story.

Tell me, so we are in an Airbnb.

And we, we went with some of our
friends, so there was actually, um, two

other families that we met up there.

So they 4, 8, 11 kids total.


yeah, we did not all stay together,
which I think is the key to

vacationing with friends is,
um, stay in your own house, but.

We're in this suburban
neighborhood, we have an Airbnb.

And in your like check-in documents,
there's a whole page about bears,

but you're like, nah, I gotta
really have to worry about bears.


It's not gonna happen to me.


It's not gonna happen to me.

I am not kidding.

We come home from the grocery store.

We're in a neighborhood.

It is the middle of the day, pull into
the driveway and my friend's car, which is

parked right next to us in the driveway.

Look over.

And there is a bear that has broken
the window of their truck in their car.


I know it broke the window.

Oh geez.

It was crazy.

That's aggressive.

It was.


And then we're in the car and
it's like the bear's right there.

And the first thought is like, If the
bear can break that window, the bear

could probably break this window.


It was a lot of excitement.


That's terrifying.

I've never heard a story of
a bear breaking into a car.

I gotta send you a picture.

Like it, it was, yeah, please do wild.

And they claim so that the.

The people who, the friends that own the
car, they have like little kids, so they

didn't leave any food in the car, but you
know, you got like pretzels and goldfish

in the car seat and all that stuff.

So we assumed that bear smelled
that stuff, but broke the window

butt hanging outta the car.

It was, it was wild.

It was terrifying.

It was wild.

Like, and I had the baby, not the babies,
but I had like the little kids with me,

three little kids, like five and under.

We were gonna go for
a walk with popsicles.

And I was like, I don't know if I can
protect three kids from a bear at once.


Maybe we should.

I don't know if you can
protect one kid from a bear.

Colleen . So that was wild
bears are pretty strong.

that was pretty wild.

I, I don't know that I've ever been
that close to a bear in my life.


So definitely not a lot.

That was, that was a,
that was a crazy day.

How was the beach?

What beach did you go to?

Like beach was great.


to some beach in Florida.

Um, oh, you flew with my wife's family.

We flew with the twins, with the babies.


With the babies.

Um, it is hard work vacationing with kids.

Oh yeah.

It is.

It is hard, man.

We had a ton of fun.


Um, but you know, we've done this trip
before with no kids and boy howdy.

It is a lot.

Lot harder with kids.


I mean the naps, the eating all
the time, kids just eat like six

times a day and then the sunscreen
and the sand and the sun on a baby.


It's like, what is this worth it?

Um, so it was fun, but yeah,
it was, uh, It's hard work.


I remember those days,
especially when they're little

like, oh, it's a lot a hustle.

It's a lot of hustle.

We, we like to distinguish between
vacations and family trips.


This was a family trip, right?

For sure.

Family trip.


While I was there.

Um, this is quick while I was there.

I launched version one
of single store for Lago.

Ooh, congratulations.

Um, thank you.

So I, I tagged it.

I mean, I had launched, we'd
released it a while back, but

I finally tagged version one.

So that went super well.

Um, so I'm thrilled with that
wrote a quick start blog post

for them, put it on their site.

Um, so that's one of the long
running things I've been working on.

And 1.0 is out the door.




Feeling, feeling good about that.

And then, um, one other thing I wanna
talk about is my new YouTube studio.

Oh yes.

Tell me, tell me about this.

So I think we had talked.

Maybe last time making more
videos, um, like live streaming

and making videos for refine and
basically just being more public.

And now, now that I have the time.

I've set up like a full
on YouTube studio in here.

And so the plan is I'm gonna like start
doing live streaming stuff that I already

needed to do, like building the demo site
for hammer stone, that kind of stuff.

Um, but just do it live
and then I will also do.

I will also start doing
some Lael YouTube videos.

Um, because I think there's just,
there's just a lot of opportunity there.

I mean, it, I, I watched a whole bunch
of videos on Lael on YouTube and there

are some, like, there are some really
good ones, but I, I just think there's

so many topics that aren't covered.

Um, and aren't covered well, It would be
something that I could, I could tackle.

So got a couple of like soft boxes.

I got a real DSLR camera.

Um, yeah, I'm all set up.

I'm ready to go.

I'm ready to start recording.

Wait, I wanna hear more about your setup.

So is this a new camera?

This is a new camera.

So this is a can M 50 camera.


Um, so it's a DSLR that's hooked
into, um, the El Gato 4k cam link.

So it's.

HDM I straight outta the
camera into the computer.

Then on either side, I've
got these big light boxes.

Um, oh.

And then in front of
me, I have a ring light.

So if I turn off, if I turn off these
light boxes, you can see it gets a lot.

Oh, wow.

The difference is quite extreme.


That's kind of what you
would expect on a, on a call.

And then if I turn them back on,
it looks like I'm a YouTuber.

It does.

Um, it's weird, right?


It's super.

And then I have a light behind me.


Um, pointed down at my head
that kind of fills, like fills

the background a little bit.

And then a ring light right in
front of me that like fills me.

So you have four lights, a little more.


Where do you put the ring
light on top of your monitor?

Um, it's hooked, it's mounted on the
desk and it has a pole that stands

up and it's behind the monitor.

So you really put some effort into this?

Oh yeah, I did.

Yeah, I really did.

I thought this is something, I mean,
one it's fun, but two, like, I feel

like, how do I say this nicely?

I feel like a lot of the videos
on YouTube developer videos are

just kind of thrown together.


And if you go watch like.

I don't know, personal finance or,
you know, marketing videos or any

of these other niches on YouTube.

Um, they're like really well done
so much better and really sharp.

And I thought why I could do some of that.

Like, I'm not gonna become
a expert video maker, but I

could step it up a little bit.

I like it.

So does the new camera do
the blurred background?


So the new camera, um, I have a.

A, I got a new lens for it.

Um, okay.

That makes the background blurry.

So it's a really low F stop,
I think is how you say it.

And so it's focused, like
whatever it focuses on.


Everything else is just
super out of focus.

Isn't that crazy?

That is crazy.


So it's like, This is all
straight outta the camera.

So there's no like AI
processing or whatever.

So it doesn't ever get wonky or anything.

How much did, how much
did the whole setup cost?


A lot of money calling a lot of money.

It costs, it costs a lot of money.

yeah, I think the camera
was like five or $600.


Oh yeah.

It's a, oh, I idea idea.

It's like a, it's a can camera.

I mean, it's a DSLR camera.


Um, and the lens was a
couple hundred as well.

And then all the lights and everything.


It's expensive.


No, you look very crisp.

Like, thanks.

It's it's good.

You feel very crisp.


It's good.


That's exciting.

Oh man.

Yeah, that'll be fun.

So look forward to many,
many YouTube videos.

Um, hopefully as I, as I, uh, recoup
that cost over over the tens of

cents I will make off of YouTube.

All right, let's talk.

Uh, what do you wanna talk about rails?

Talk about your call that you had?

Well, let's talk about the Lael
sale first, because that also

happened while I was on vacation.

That happened while I was on vacation too.

Oh, fun.

Um, yeah.

So there's a guy in Laville that I'm
friends with boss, man, Chris, and

he's been waiting for react to be ready
and, you know, it's all open sourced.

And so he is, I guess, been watching
it or heard, heard us talk about it

on the podcast or something and was
like, Hey, what if I just buy it?

And he bought it.

He just, he just bought the back
end because he heard react was.

And then sent me an email and
was like, Hey, I can't figure

out how to get it set up.

And I was like, wait,
did you already buy it?

um, and he had, and so I sent him an
email back that was like, here's usually,

I would try to get on a call with you
to help you with this, but since you

already bought it, which is amazing.

Thank you.

Um, here's you know how I would do it?

And then I said, let's get on a call and
I can walk you through even more of it.

Um, and I haven't heard back from yet, so
either he got it set up and is thrilled

or he's moved on to something else.

So I'll reach out to him again.

But yeah, he just like heard the react
one was ready and bought the PHP one and

did it all himself, which is pretty great.

That's amazing.

Love it.

I know.

So we made another sale, which is good.

Um, and I need to, I need to finish, I
need to Polish up some of the react stuff.

Dave has gotten some more stuff
done there, including browser tests,

which is gonna be really nice.

Um, so yeah, react is ready.

It's all.

It's all we made a sale.


That's wonderful.

So I had a call yesterday with, um, an
analytics company that is very interested.

Mm-hmm analytics companies are
tough because they have such

complicated requirements when they
look at segmenting their user base.


And it was in Dutch, by the way.

Did I share that part?

so you did not, I mean, they spoke
English perfectly, but like okay, good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no,
the interface was all good.

We were able to communicate
no problem, but.

It was kind of funny cuz they were trying
to show me what they had, not in English.

So yeah, that was, that
was an added fun layer.

And so I think it went really well.

They, um, they seemed
really excited about it.

Something they're very interested in.

They, uh, their CTO wanted to kind
of put together a few more specific

questions about the tech, because what
they're doing now is they're doing the

same thing our client is doing, where
they're pulling a list of IDs from one

query and putting it into another query.

So we do that for our client because
it's actually two different databases.

Mm-hmm , but they do that.

they said it's faster
quizzical look on my face.


So that was an interesting, uh,
I thought that was an interesting

assertion, but I think he has mm-hmm
my understanding from our call

was he has like a database person.

So the next step with them is they're
gonna send me some questions and, um,

maybe sit down, maybe we'll sit down
with their database person to kind

of more fully understand their needs.

They're very interested in this concept.

The nested inline filters, which is
something we have talked about for a

while, uh, but is a big lift for us.

So they're very interested in that.

They think that would be great.

I mean, you.

I think it's important to remember.

So this nested inline filter
concept is this concept of

you're on the contacts page.

And you want all contacts who have
purchased products that meet a specific

product filter mm-hmm . And you wanna
build that out all on the same page, but

I think in many of our use cases like.

I can make custom conditions or
they can make custom conditions

that meet a lot of their needs.

I think so.

Like I don't, I think that's true.

And I think that's easier for
them and easier for the end user.


Cuz the UI for this is gonna be tricky.

Like I was talking about
it with our contractor and.

I think the more we think about it,
cuz I already made our current client.

So they have the event table
that links all the IDs.

So you come in, you view a product like
you get all those IDs on your event table.

And I was able to build them a
custom condition, which is all

users that have viewed product
with name, whatever, with whatever.

But I think when they first
thought of that, because you have

that, those two IDs, like in the.

Clause, if you will, you think
of it as a nested filter, right.

But it's really a custom condition.

So, so that's kind of what I'm thinking
is like, there are a lot of use cases.

People are like, oh, nested filters.

I'm like, I don't know
that you really need that.

That that's as high
priority as you think it is.

So it's still something I wanna do, but I
don't think it's gonna be a deal breaker.

Yeah, no, I think, and you told him great.

We'll have that bye by right now.




That I think that's the move.

Cause I mean, if they need it
or not is an open question.

Could they get started without it?




So I mean, my take on all of this Erin,
and this is what I told these guys.

And, um, we are small and
scrappy and this is for both

of us, our number one priority.

So we are going to do everything
we can to make this work for you.

And if it doesn't, we'll sort it.

We aren't gonna sell you something you
don't need, but we, I mean, we want every

single customer to be incredibly happy.


So we're all in.

Good to make sure that happens.

And if, for any reason you aren't
like, we'll, we'll sort it out.

But I really think that the
huge benefit to working with us.

Is, we are super committed.

It's not a huge company, right?

We, we are right.

You and I are two people who are
super committed to making this work.

So it's gonna work.

Did you learn that from your sales,
YouTube videos that was compelling?

No, I didn't.



That was good.

Thank you.

I'm re I'm ready to buy.

I think that was great,
but it's also true, right?

Like, I mean, of course.


That's the best part.

No, I didn't.

The sales YouTube videos were a
little, little slimier than that.

Well, that was good.

I, I applaud you.

I like that line.

So, um, I hope to hear back from them.

I'll reach out with them.

I mean, the last episode
we did, what did you say?

You said follow up or
die, follow up or die.

So I'll definitely add them to our
list and, you know, follow up with

them and see if, if it's a good fit.


Yeah, I'm excited.

So I scheduled, um, I, I
scheduled an onboarding date with

Ben, so that's like next week.


I know you told me to, so I did teammate.

That's great.

I love that.

I love having power like that.

that's great.

That's so soon I know it's
maybe the week after next, but

it's like the next week or two.

Um, I think the only thing we have
to have before we put it on anyone's

side is client side validations.

Like we.

We've gotta have it.

That is for me.

Uh, I'm trying to, I'm trying to.

Pick like one thing a week, because
what always happens to me is I

think I can do all of these things.

And software always takes longer
than you think it's gonna take.

Yeah, this is just life.

We all know this is true.

And we all continue to lie to ourselves
about how long it's gonna take.

And so this week, like validations
are my number one priority.

Gotta get that solved.

Um, I was telling you, before
we, before we recorded that our

contractor has done some great
refactoring to use form objects.

So hopefully that'll.

This whole situation, a little easier.

The real struggle we're having with these
client side validations is if we could

just put the errors on the blueprint,
it would like not be a problem, but I

know we're trying really hard not to
do that because you really sold me with

your, the blueprint is the user's intent.


That's like the big push for me this week
is we gotta get these validations cuz

I'm onboarding Ben in like a week or two.

And um, and that's really exciting.

And yeah, so, so for on the rail side,
I think a lot of the work right now,

obviously validations and I have a
list of like other tasks, but the.

A lot of it is gonna
be this implementation.

And I think like, as we've talked
about, like, as we start implementing

it, what are the sticky points?

Should we provide more rappers around it?

I think we're, I think we're
gonna end up providing an optional

wrapper with an applied discard
button, which is totally fine.

I think that's great.

And one more thing we need, what
we, really, another thing we really

need is we need what they have
requested, which I think is a great

idea is like pills that essentially.

Show you what filter you
currently have applied.

So we need you, and I need to
think about how we wanna do that.

Cause for example, when I
demo this, I dump the sequel.

So people can re mm-hmm can
know what we're looking at.

So what's happening with our client
engineers and our client is big.

They have 50 engineers.

I think we've mentioned that.

Is they'll apply a filter.

The user will come in and apply a
filter or someone will be testing

and they'll apply a filter.

And then they won't remember.

They won't like, know
what they're looking at.

We need to give them something.

And, and I almost think
it's like, I don't know.

We need to think about it.

Um, they want something, well,
why I don't understand why

can't they not see the filter?

That they've applied, cuz
it's hidden in the popover.


Cuz you click filter.

You say contacts, name, Colleen apply.

That window closes mm-hmm and then all
you see are contacts filtered by name

equals Colleen, but you don't know that?



Like what they want is they want
pills that would say name equals

Colleen and then you could X
one out and then it would clear.



We can talk about that offline, but,
um, yeah, that's a big, that's a

big thing they've been requesting
and I think it's a great idea.

I don't know that it's something
like we'd provide the UI for that.

I feel like right.

I, I feel like we would just
provide, we just need to provide

some kind of data structure.

To let, I don't know.

We'll think about it.

We need to think of,
talk about that all more.

I mean, that's the blueprint,
you're, you're basically rendering

the blueprint again, right.

In a different form in a different
form, which, I mean, I know that they're

using Hotwire, but in our react and
or view versions, you could do that.

You could have the same blueprint
in two different places.

Rendered completely differently.


Super in line and one with
more Chrome around it.

Um, so I mean, that's doable.

I just don't know how you
would do it on, in hot wire.


We'll talk about it.

I'm I'm sure we can sort it out.

I mean, that's so that's kind of like a
ne the next thing that's right though.

We can just.

We'll sort that out.


Um, so let's see.

So validations this week really
wanna get that cleaned up and then

we have a couple little things.

Um, I've started thinking about how
we wanna do like a demo site you had

mentioned, are you gonna live stream
a demo site for the layer site?

I think so.


Very cool.


I'll be honest.

That makes me, that makes me nervous.

Like just, just the concept of
live streaming stuff makes me

nervous, but I think it's good.

I think it'll be, oh, it'll be.

I think it'll be good.

And I think it'll be, uh, it's
kinda like a forcing function too.

Like I'm not going to, I'm not gonna dork
around if I'm live streaming, I gotta

get, like, I gotta get the stuff done.


So I think it'll be, are you gonna
like, is that YouTube or Twitch or both?

I'm gonna start on YouTube.

I feel like Twitch is its own
subculture that I don't really

have time to learn right now.

Um, So I'm just gonna start on YouTube.

All right.

So you have also on this list
LA summer, what does that mean?

Yeah, Laracon online is coming back again.



So they're doing summer edition
and I want, I wanna submit a talk

and I don't know what to submit.

So what should I do?

I wanna do something like database
slash performance related.

Um, but what should I do?

I don't know.

Can you take something from, I mean,
do you wanna do something like.

can you take something from one
of your consulting engagements?



I mean, I really like the, the talks
where it's like solving this problem

where the database is locking up.

Mm-hmm walking through the queries
or walking through the, the app

to figure out like in rails.

We have a lot of things that like,
I guess I don't obviously know

that much about Elle, but in LA in
rails, we have a lot of like common

mistakes people make mm-hmm when.

Because we don't think about
performance until we have to.

So designing for performance.

That's interesting.

That's what it should be
design for performance upfront.

That that is a pretty good title.

I like that.

I think that, okay.

Well that was easy.

That was easy.

I just gotta build a whole talk
around it, but I think I can do that.

I think you can do that.



Um, well, that's fine.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, we'll see.

I mean, might as well submit something.

We'll see if, uh, it gets chosen.


And your talk in where
Europe somewhere this fall.

Uh, yeah, be, and TWRP.


What's that one on that's on sidecar.

Okay, cool.

Very nice.


I need to, I need to prepare,
I need to update that, but it's

not, you know, I'm not creating it
from scratch, so that'll be okay.

So when are we ready to like really start.

Pushing on some of this Larabe marketing.

Like we have a whole list of
things that, what does that mean?

That means, hold on.

I got a list emailing the Laracon list.

Um, reaching out to the Larabe news.

People doing a product hunt launch.

I think we should do all these things.

I don't know that we need to do them
right now, but where is your comfort

level with supporting like a big push.

For the Lael product?

Um, pretty high.


Um, let me think.

So big push, what do we need?

So I think it may be useful
to divide that between.

What do we need on the marketing side?

And what do we need on the technical?

Um, I think on the technical
side, we don't need anything.


Like on the technical side,
we're we're totally ready.

Save for front end documentation,
which spans both technical and okay.

We do need.

Some front end documentation, like how
to use the view and how to use react.

Um, so in that regard, I feel great.

Totally ready.

I think on the marketing side,
we do need the demo site.

I was just thinking that.

Yep because I, I, and maybe this is
like me being afraid or something, but

I really don't wanna push super hard
before we have the demo site there.

Cuz I feel like that's been a
pretty common refrain from people

that we've tried to pitch it
to is like, can I play with it?

It's like, no, we can get on
a call and I can show you.

And like, I just wanna see the thing.

Um, so would we need
anything else beyond that?

I don't, I, I don't think so.

What do you think?

Am I missing something?

I think the demo site's really important.

And can I have a quick segue here?

Okay, please.

So this is a little embarrassing,
but I think I told you I've started

following Gary V on the internet.

Oh, wow.




And I know it's a look.

I'm excited.

I have no idea where this is going,
but I know it's gonna be great.

So please continue.

So he had this post the other day.

And it was this concept of time.

And his argument was as humans.

Our number one failing is we Don.

Properly think of time.

Like we don't think of time in
the proper context and okay.

His point was he's 45, I think so
older than both of us, obviously.

Um, obviously, uh, but his point was so
people in their twenties or people who

are trying to do something like they
just kill themselves and they think

they have no time to do something.


When really you could start a
second career at 45 and have 20.

Years in that career.

And so I feel like, so basically
like the post, the concept

was like, you have more time.

Then you think you do so use it wisely,
use it intelligently, still push as

appropriate, but be smart about it.

So that made me think of us because
okay, we are in a sprint, right.

And I am happy to be in this sprint.

That is where I want to be.

But I feel like we are on the
cusp of like something great.

And everyone keeps
telling us to move faster.

They do so everyone keeps
telling us to move faster.

But I think if we're not
careful we could bundle it.


Tell me more.

So for example, this is a perfect example.

Like we could launch on
product hunt Friday, right?

Like, or whatever, we could go
really, really hard right now.

But like, I think these little things,
like, yes, it's worth to wait two.

To have a demo site,
same thing with rails.

Like, yes, it's worth to wait a
month to have like, we've come so

far and the product is so good.

We gotta nail the landing.

Like we don't wanna bundle it
now by pushing something out or

doing a huge marketing push when.

We're like 98% done.

That's what I mean.

I fully agree with that.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, I think there's a balance of course,
to be struck between waiting forever and.

Right launching soon, but I do think,
um, I do think the, the point that

we're aiming for is not, uh, asymptotic
like, it's not forever moving away

from us there, like demo site.

We just need to have, it's
a thing, the demo site.


And then we can.

We can start expending some
of this marketing, um, energy.

Um, yeah, that's really interesting.

I it's funny you say that.

Cause I do feel like everyone's always
saying like, go faster, just do it.

Like just release it right now.

What's the worst that could happen.

It's like, I mean probably nothing
bad, but it would be better and

I would feel better about it.

If we were like ready to launch
when it was time to launch.


And I, I think absolutely
there's a balance.

And of course that is excellent advice
because we do need to launch something.

I mean, we have, it's launched,
like you can buy it now.


But I, I, I do think it's worth it.

Like here we are so close to being
ready to do all these things.

If it takes a couple more weeks to
have a demo site, like I think that

kind of stuff is worth it because yeah.

Like I said, you don't
wanna botch the landing.

You've come this.


And I really feel like hammer
stone is just such a different

product because it's so good.

And I could say that cuz
I have another product

that I launched early.

Yeah, I think it's yeah, I
think, um, I, I agree with that.

and I think if there's any criticism,
it's that the product is too good

and the marketing is too anemic.


So I think that, and, and that's what
we're trying to, you know, correct.

Right now.

It's like, let's, let's get the marketing
assets ready because you'll, as you

heard, I don't think there's anything
technical that needs to be done.


Like on my side, I, I, I don't think
any of the product needs to be touched.

Frankly, it hasn't been touched
in a month or two because I don't

think there's anything there.

Um, and so now it's like the thing
that needs to be done is just

these very basic marketing things.

And then we can push for real, which
is not to say that we haven't been.

Trying to do the one on one sales stuff.

I think that's been going
pretty well by the way.

Like I think so feel I have, so with
the rails founding customers two,

three, um, and I feel like that's
been going pretty well, and I'm pretty

happy with that because I still feel
like, like I've said, we have some

iterations with this stimulus, like
how much we wanna ship, what kind

of rappers we wanna ship with it.

Um, so I'm feeling pretty good about.

I agree.


So I think we're in a good spot.

I'm glad you don't feel the
need to get it out today.

Um, I think we both, we both have a sense
of, I think we both have the sense of

urgency and so we don't need to be pushing
towards urgency cuz that's where we are.


Already agree.

So demo site, what's your,
what's your timeline on that?

Um, I don't.

I mean, I think I could probably get that
done and I need to find a source for data.

Like I need to find a
compelling source for data.

I could.

Like the, my SQL sample database.

Um, I could probably grab like
a, I think there's some open data

sets for like, like movies, books,
authors, that sort of stuff.

Um, so I need to find data.

I need to make a new
Elle app pull refine in.

I, I really don't think
it'll take that long.


Um, and I guess we could host it on
vapor, which is Elle's thing, cuz.

The main site is already hosted on vapor.

Um, that may be, that may be
my, like my thing for next week.


Um, cuz there's a little bit of like bonus
work around it in that I'm going to try

to like learn how to stream along the way.


Um, and so that adds, you know, 15%.

Um, but yeah, I'll do,
I'll do that for next week.

That'll be my thing for next week.


Do you have strong opinions on
anything about the demo site?

I mean, it's gonna be pretty,
it's gonna be pretty basic.

Um, I think it should look good.


It'll look, you know, tail windy.


But it's not gonna be, it's
not gonna be much beyond like

filtering . Yeah, that's fine.

I think people are people.


You're gonna, are you gonna set
it up in such a way that people

can like edit the filters and see.

What happens when they edit the filters?

I think you're muted.

Oh, you mean edit the, like the PHP?


Like the filter itself.


Oh, okay.

No is fine.

I wasn't should I um, not if it adds, you
know, another week to your not to start.

That was kind of what I've been
thinking though, is it would be pretty

cool if people could see like how to
edit filters and like actually build

out new filters and things like that.


I mean, that would be extremely cool.

Um Hmm.

But, but, but I think any
demo site is good right now.

I think that's a quagmire.


I think live, live editing
PHP files in a sandbox.

And let me think about that.

There may be some work arounds.

I know that there's a, I know that
there are a few Lael playgrounds online

that could do that sort of thing,
but that, that may be a quagmire.

That's not worth it right now.



I, I do not think it's worth it.

If it's gonna delay you.

Okay, then we'll say no, cuz
it would definitely delight me.


Let's say no then.


Cuz I'd like to get that.

I think we would need to get that
up and then we can start doing

some of this marketing stuff
and that'll, that'll be good.

Um, cool idea though.

That'd be pretty awesome.

Speaking of demo sites, are you,
are you planning on doing one?


So I've been thinking about the demo site.

I actually thought it's interesting.

I'm glad we're talking about this.

I can get bullet train set up.

You can open it with GI PODD.

And I had thought, it'd be cool
to let people edit the filter so

they could see how that works.

And since bullet train is now open source,
we could put our package in there and

kind of what I had built for the workshop.

I mean, that was the reason I spent so
much time building that workshop, right.

Is because I want to.

Essentially what I built for the workshop
and turn it into like a demo playground.

Mm-hmm . So with GI PODD bullet train,
um, a few things I need, I think, to make

that better data, that's a good call.

Mm-hmm and the UI is kind of, eh, you
saw it, like, I'm not really happy with

the UI right now, and it's not our UI.

It's the bullet train UI that sits on top.

The filter, but like the filter
buttons in a weird place.

And I only put it on one page.

So my thought had actually
been to do that first.

That's that being the get pod pod, the
get PODD bullet train integration first.

Yeah, I think that sounds great.

I mean, you're already so
close, so that's right.

Even better.

It's so close to being done.

So all I need to do is get it set up on
a standalone repo, host it, um, get some

real data in there and clean up the UI.

And once we have validations,
I think that's a playground.

At least I think we also need a demo site.

Probably let's see how this
plays out, but what you can do,

what I can do is I can, okay.

So I can have the demo site
and then, oh, this is it.

This is just the, tell me you have the
demo site and then you have a link.

To the repo that you can open with GI
PODD that you can edit and play with.

That sounds pretty good.

That's the move.

So I like that.


Just something like, I feel like with
demo sites, like some kind of interesting

data, you were just talking about this,
but yeah, it'd be fun to have like

something funny or something like.

Just more entertaining than right.

Like we should, but it also has
to have relationships and right.


So yeah, there's, there are plenty
of open data sources we could use.


I think we should give that a sec.

Let me, well, you're gonna do
yours first because you're gonna

start working on it this week.

So let me know what you decide on.


But I think we can have a little fun
there and, um, and that can be cool.


I think that's gonna be great.

Anything else?


We'll call it there.


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Creators and Guests

Colleen Schnettler
Colleen Schnettler
Co-Founder of Refine, Founder of Simple File Upload
Michele Hansen
Michele Hansen
Co-Founder of Geocodio & Author of Deploy Empathy
2022, Software Social